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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26451: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:04:44 PM

This is true.

It may look like skill is unimportant because the characters get so strong after a while, but it's their skill that lets them beat opponents on their level.

I mean, it was Frieza's poor training that made him lose both times.

One Strip! One Strip!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#26452: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:05:16 PM

As far as technique goes, I don't think anything actually matters, but they make a point about conserving energy and maintaining a physique that has a proper balance between necessary attributes. Does that count?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26453: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:05:28 PM

He wasn't called a better fighter any of the times he was weaker than Vegeta though. Any time Vegeta was stronger than him, the reaction was either "what will Goku do (about Vegeta)?" or "If Vegeta can't do it, Goku definitely can't".

edited 17th Oct '15 9:12:40 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26454: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:07:48 PM

Well that's kind of my point. Anything Vegeta can do, Goku can literally do better [lol]

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26455: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:11:59 PM

Re-read what I just said. It is the opposite of your point.

edited 17th Oct '15 9:12:16 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26456: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:14:40 PM

I either misread what you said, you had something different.

But in any case, are you talking about when Vegeta debuted or whenver Vegeta temporarily surpassed him in strength?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26457: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:19:42 PM

My edit only added the (about Vegeta) bracket for clarification.

Both of those times. In his first appearance, Goku could only achieve anything when he raised his power higher than Vegeta and even that wasn't enough, so he lost.

Then in the moments when Vegeta surpassed him later, people both wondered what they'll do if Goku can't stop Vegeta, and what Goku could achieve that Vegeta couldn't. This is especially prevalent in the Android arc, where Goku and others says he shouldn't even try since Vegeta couldn't win.

Then in the Boo arc, he outright says "Vegeta was as strong as I am, and he couldn't defeat Boo. I can't defeat Boo".

That's not to say skill doesn't matter in Dragon Ball, but when it comes down to Goku and Vegeta, strength is the only edge one ever has over the other on the battlefield. Goku's advantage over Vegeta applies off the battlefield, in his approach to life and training. And his later retconned Born Winner status.

edited 17th Oct '15 9:20:53 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26458: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:26:28 PM

I was more speaking about Goku & Vegeta in relation to each other, not necessarily against the opponents they fight. At that point, it comes down because their enemies tend to be vastly stronger than them anyway.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26459: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:28:04 PM

I'm talking about them in relation to each other. The logic Goku uses is never "the gap in power is too big" it's always "Vegeta can't therefore I can't". In fact, he literally says he is no better once or twice.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26460: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:30:00 PM

Then why does media seem to go out of its way to portray Goku as the better one of the two...unless I'm missing something here.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26461: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:32:52 PM

Probably cause Goku is the hero, and the hero is usually seen as being better and stronger than the rival, even if this isn't always necessarily true.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#26462: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:33:54 PM

Plus, Vegeta was never as strong as Goku was in the Buu Saga, not even once. Or did you forget he still had Super Saiyan 3 to use, compared to Vegeta who tops at Super Saiyan 2?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26463: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:33:55 PM

Maybe its because of a retcon like Saiga said, but Whis straight up said Goku was the better one of the two in ROF.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26464: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:34:50 PM

[up][up][up][up] cause he has an easier time becoming more powerful.

[up][up] No one forgot that. But Goku didn't use that in his comparisons.

[up] yes he said that... in reference to a new character flaw invented by that movie.

edited 17th Oct '15 9:36:36 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#26465: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:35:13 PM

Who are you even referring to in that?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#26466: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:36:04 PM

@Gojira: I think Yakuza meant when Vegeta was in the HTC.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#26467: Oct 17th 2015 at 9:46:17 PM

In this week's Dragonball Super... Shenanigans. Lots and lots of shenanigans, like Chichi going back on her word to let Goku train, because a working grandfather is a respectable grandfather for Pan and whatnot. Of course, there's also how Piccolo was somehow roped into being Chichi's gofer...

And next week it looks like we're going to get Vegeta cooking AGAIN, this time for Whis. Such fun there'll be in that. XD

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#26468: Oct 17th 2015 at 10:25:41 PM

This episode made me realise, now they don't have Toriyama's work to fall back on...they're totally reverting to everyone's Filler personalities.

Goddamn it, Toei. Now people are going to start thinking Chi-Chi is officially a selfish bitch, even though that's only really in filler.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26469: Oct 17th 2015 at 10:27:49 PM

I TAKE ONE NAP AND ALL THE COOL SHIT HAPPENS! Whis' older sister being stronger than him is fantastic! I can't even describe how much I want the representatives from Earth to be Krillin, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chioutzu, and Bulma (to show that non-fighter can be important). Goku, Vegeta, their kids, and Piccolo can still search for the Super Dragon Balls, fighting the strong Universe 6 inhabitants while the Humans do awesome tests to show their awesomeness.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#26470: Oct 17th 2015 at 10:36:16 PM

Oh, yeah. The manga. Right. I haven't said my opinions about that yet

This could be fun if it's utilised well. If it's like the Uranai Baba section, the interesting thing is they'll probably save Goku for last, once everyone else has been defeated. So that can potentially give others a chance to shine.

But what I don't like about Uranai Baba is Goku ends up taking 3/5 of the villains in the end. I really don't want Super to do the same thing.

In terms of who's participating, it's probably Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo...and...probably Gohan and Gotenks? Although I don't trust Toei to make the latter two more than joke characters, albeit for different reasons.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26471: Oct 17th 2015 at 10:44:38 PM

The other part about Uranai Baba I don't like is that Goku taking 3/5 characters only happened because he didn't step up sooner. He probably could have dealt with the bat's speed himself, invisible man would have been easy, and then he sweeps the rest of them.

So the battles before it weren't really a chance for the other characters to shine because Goku didn't need it.

edit: Non-fighters can be important in... non-fights. Entering Bulma into a tournament is stupid.

edited 17th Oct '15 10:45:09 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26472: Oct 17th 2015 at 10:52:47 PM

Goku should've beat Devilman and Grandpa Gohan and nobody else. Krillin should've recovered by the time Yamcha was beaten by Mummy so that Krillin could fight Mummy and Devilman, beating Mummy after a long hard-fought battle and losing to Devilman but only after putting up a fight.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26473: Oct 17th 2015 at 10:56:11 PM

I think Yamcha should have just beaten Mummy by knocking him off the edge. The bandage ropes were pretty stupid and it'd be funny to see their cesspool thing immediately backfire on them for trying way too hard to be edgy.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26474: Oct 17th 2015 at 10:57:47 PM

That would give Yamcha a victory though.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#26475: Oct 17th 2015 at 10:58:48 PM

Hey, Yamcha won against.... uh.... hm..... that one fight!

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else

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