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Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26126: Oct 9th 2015 at 4:23:15 PM

They told him he could be anything.

So he became a pirate.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#26127: Oct 9th 2015 at 4:25:03 PM

Good choice, since pirates are free.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#26128: Oct 9th 2015 at 4:29:02 PM

This version better.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26129: Oct 9th 2015 at 4:32:16 PM

Jesus!

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26130: Oct 9th 2015 at 5:10:47 PM

The fight with Bojack is, I guess, reminiscent of the fight with Cell. Bojack himself is one of a kind though.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#26131: Oct 9th 2015 at 5:50:49 PM

Jaheezus Chorist Vampire Hunter, the fuck is that, and what kind of drugs were they on when they thought it was a good idea!?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#26132: Oct 9th 2015 at 10:59:46 PM

Because when North Kai tells Goku of Bojack's ambitions he immediately compares him to Piccolo. And he's a previously sealed away alien demon with ties to a god that wants to takeover Earth, a plan he goes about by sending his underlings after tournament finalists. And yes, hole in stomach. He wasn't as blatant as Lord Slug but Bojack was still a Picoolo knockoff. The Goku-Gohan dynamic was definitely a Perfect Cell retread though.

Buldogue's lawyer
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#26133: Oct 10th 2015 at 5:07:35 AM

This has come up before, more than likely.

Super-Kaioken.

It's filler, yes.

But at what point in the manga or anime is this ruled out. It's ruled out by the fanbase because of its omission, clearly, without need for discussion, if Toriyama didn't include it, it's not possible. That might work for most things, but where's the evidence that this is simply impossible?

Goku never tried it. Yeah, well there's a couple of things Goku never tried that don't make a lot of sense, the Abridged Series points them out: the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, abusing Instant Transmission, teaching Instant Transmission, teaching Kaioken, returning to Earth via Shenron's power, wishing to find Dr. Gero instead of waiting, etc. You could build a fort with all of the good ideas that the main characters never tried.

Clause: Super Kaioken would wreck his body. Proof: Kaioken x20 did just this. Argument: having a high base power didn't create strain, Goku overclocking the technique did. The problem is that Goku is an over-achieving PC gamer who loves overclocking needed to fight the Big Bad and using Kaioken safely wasn't getting the job done. He pushes the technique far beyond its usual limit, and as we see, he does this longer and more severely as the threat grows bigger - this is what kills him, not an inherent flaw in the technique itself. Even so, it's a muscle, and Goku just keeps training it so he can push it farther the next time.

Super Saiyan doesn't create strain on the body once you master that, so why would that non-existent strain, that new "base" power, affect the Kaioken's strain, make it lethal? Goku used it on Ginyu just fine despite being astronomically stronger than he was against Vegeta. If just having a high base power means instant Kaioken gibbing, then by that logic, Vegito would kill himself if he tried it - his base power's far beyond what Goku's was on Namek.

For a weaker, yet more thematic argument, look at Goku's other forms, techniques, his education in general. Goku is always taking a powerful technique and, with enough dedication, making it better. That seems to be Toriyama's general direction for the character. How has the "Super Kaioken Equals Suicide" interpretation become accepted, preferred? Isn't the winning appeal of Goku's character that he... hrh-hrm... breaks limits with reckless abandon?

Is the Super Kaioken scene not one of the best scenes from that filler arc?

I'd say it was, it's about the only other thing besides Grand Kai being a beatnik I remember from that arc, but, this isn't important. This isn't to say "its definitely canon because I can disprove why it was omitted", but saying it's not that absurd just because it was.

No, I say the reason Goku never used it again, or tried to reapply it, and by extension, Toriyama didn't, is because Super Saiyan was just better in function and appearance - everyone can agree with that. Super Saiyan was an awesome-looking Super Form, why go back? Kaioken's omission from the rest of the original series (not the franchise) is not definite proof that it's lethal if used on a power level higher than Goku's in the Namek arc - early manga statements, if any, withstanding. Kaioken is obsolete, but like the human fighters, the world tournament, the androids with their lack of energy-sensing, Frieza's restricted forms, and Trunks's sword, it didn't have to be.

Look at Goku's tactics when he uses the Kaioken - is it the strain from just having Goku activate it, or is it because he launches a massive Kamehameha as a finishing move 2 out of 3 times he uses it? This, too, would leave him drained. So, as a Super Saiyan, use physical attacks, don't drop the payload right away, use the Kaioken in bursts. Bam, Goku gets to kick ass without the Ki Gauge bottoming out, you've effectively Red Potara'd Cell Saga/Buu Saga Goku without Super Saiyan 3.

edited 10th Oct '15 5:18:07 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26134: Oct 10th 2015 at 6:24:39 PM

If it could be used that way Goku would know it, though. He's the combat genius.

I just assume Super Saiyan makes Kaio-ken redundant, because if they could be stacked in anyway Goku would most likely attempt it despite the danger. He's ignored the dangers of Kaio-ken before by taking it higher than he should have.

From a meta perspective I think it was removed because Super Saiyan was the same concept but had less problems in its execution. Restricting it to Saiyans meant that only Saiyans need to be relevant, so you can have other power-ups for the non-Saiyans that are still relevant (and before I hear any snark, this extends to the villains). Whereas with Kaio-ken, either everyone has to use it, or you're left with the knowledge that X has a lot of untapped potential if they'd just learn the Kaio-ken. Someone like Boo could potentially be several times stronger making the version we actually see feel like they're not living up to their potential.

And if everybody did use the Kaio-ken, it would be terrible from a visual perspective. The Kaio-ken may look awesome, but that would lose its appeal when everyone is using it. The traits of the form are so overbearing they'd homogenize the designs, it even "overwrites" the appearance of the Super Saiyan form making the hair the only difference (hello, Vegeta).

For the Saiyans, the Super Saiyan transformations wouldn't be able to stand out when they're always using the Kaio-ken. For Piccolo, his fusions would look so much less impressive when he's using the Kaio-ken on top of them, especially since they don't change his look. It boosts his power... and it'd always have to boost his power to a stage where he still needs to use Kaio-ken to keep up, making the Kaio-ken look more important.

For the humans, they're in luck in that they have nothing else to go off, but if they're using it why doesn't anyone else?

For the villains, it'd be convoluted if every one gets access to the Kaio-ken, and if they don't then the odds are heavily stacked in the heroes' favour because they're the only side bringing Kaio-ken to the fight.

The problem with making the Kaio-ken relevant again is where does it end?

[up] What the hell is the pothole to executive meddling meant to mean?

edited 10th Oct '15 6:25:19 PM by Saiga

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#26135: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:22:29 PM

OK, this is going to sound weird, but...like, a few months ago, someone on this thread gave a really good explanation as to why Super Saiyan 3 was most likely introduced. I think it was Saiga, but I can't be sure. It's just...this thread isn't the best at archiving, so I have no idea where it is. I'm just trying to find roughly where/when it is, because I kind of want to use it for something I'm working on, and I don't remember everything that was in it.

So, basically: if anyone has a good explanation as to why Toriyama shoved Super Saiyan 3 in there, can you write it out? I'll credit you.

edited 10th Oct '15 9:24:30 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26136: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:35:47 PM

I assume he did it to show Madjinn Buu as a whole new tier of threat.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#26137: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:41:53 PM

... Majin.

Ther is no D in there.

It's Majin.

Majin Buu.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26138: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:45:19 PM

It's my own personal spelling. 'Madjinn' keeps the 'djinn' pun intact and it's more faithful.

edited 10th Oct '15 9:46:16 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26139: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:47:40 PM

No it's not. The actual word used in "Majin", which is a separate Japanese word not taken from Djinn, despite the similarity.

"Madjinn" is pure nonsense, it is the least faithful option.

edited 10th Oct '15 9:47:55 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26140: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:49:21 PM

But there is also a djinn pun. 'Madjinn' combines the two.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#26141: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:50:05 PM

Here's a tip:

If you're gonna make something up and go with it, don't claim it's 'more faithful to the original', when you're deliberately making something up.

It's not like it's difficult to listen to the Japanese audio to listen to them say "Majin Buu".

There is no Djinn pun. Majin is there because it's Majin.

edited 10th Oct '15 9:50:35 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#26142: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:50:38 PM

I really don't think there's actually a pun here. Majin is exactly like Saiyajin or Nipponjin.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26143: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:51:43 PM

[up][up][up] No there isn't. The Japanese spelling is just "Majin" with nothing to link it to Djinn other than the similarity in how they sound when romanized.

And Toriyama doesn't speak English.

If there was meant to be a pun you'd expect the spelling to be altered like the rest of Toriyama's puns.

edited 10th Oct '15 9:52:15 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26144: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:53:21 PM

Majin means 'someone of evil'. Djinn means 'genie'. Madjinn works perfectly.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#26145: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:53:50 PM

He got it from his internal Daizenshuu. The same place he gets his power levels and characterizations.

[up]Except it's not how that's fucking spelled! In any fucking translation of the series! You're just wrong! You are factually wrong!

edited 10th Oct '15 9:54:34 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#26146: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:53:56 PM

[up][up][up] That second statement, regardless of accuracy, is rather pointless seeing as how Toriyama has made puns using English.

edited 10th Oct '15 9:54:09 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#26147: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:55:23 PM

Aren't Bibidi Babidi and Buu puns from English?

Or are they from something and work in English too?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26148: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:55:52 PM

[up][up][up]Quit being a dick. I get my Power Levels from calculated estimations and all characterization changes have just been WMG's.

Madjinn is just a Fan Nickname that I'm hoping catches on.

edited 10th Oct '15 9:57:19 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26149: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:56:45 PM

[up][up][up] No he doesn't, he makes puns based on katakana of English words. The katakana for "djinn" wouldn't resemble "Majin" at all.

[up]x5 Except it's flat our written in kanji, making Majin the only possible spelling.

edit: Heroes have just debuted Super Saiyan 4 Gohan, some new form for Toei, and what appears to be Super 18.. or Super 17 with 18 absorbed? Link.

edited 10th Oct '15 9:59:46 PM by Saiga

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#26150: Oct 10th 2015 at 9:57:36 PM

No, Bibidi, Babidi and Buu are puns in English, as are all the Saiyans' names and the names of their attacks. Toriyama definitely didn't know English, but he probably knew someone who knew a few words.

[up]That, pretty much.

edited 10th Oct '15 9:58:01 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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