TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26051: Oct 8th 2015 at 7:47:54 AM

Goku figured just having a higher power output wouldn't be enough to best Cell, so even if there was a power beyond super Saiyan, it'd drain too much energy to be useful.

Since Super Saiyan 1 is the most familiar form, it makes sense to get used to that than a newer form.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26052: Oct 8th 2015 at 7:54:57 AM

You know, I feel like they should have had Vegeta have the finishing blow on Frieza.

Like, I know they played Goku and Frieza up as these two rivals going at it, but they were never rivals. From Frieza's point of view, he was just having a normal day, Goku just showed out of nowhere, fulfilled an ancient prophecy, beat the shit out of him, and never showed up again.

Vegeta grew up under Frieza's heel. He hated him his entire life and always wanted to get revenge. Frieza and Vegeta have had a lot of history, whereas Goku was pretty much a Diabolus ex Machina for Frieza.

That's true. Frieza was Vegeta's nemesis. The villain of Vegeta's story.

Problem is, Vegeta's story is a "Shaggy Dog" Story. It ended the only way it was ever going to end: in tragic despair and crushing defeat. Frieza is insurmountable. The only way he was ever going to lose was the fulfillment of a legend, and Vegeta's not the kind of guy that gets to do that. Vegeta is a shithead, a mass murderer, almost as bad as Frieza himself; he's not the kind of guy who gets narratively rewarded by pulling an 11th-Hour Superpower out of his ass. He's the kind of guy who chokes on his own Fatal Flaw in the third act and dies, still desperately reaching for the prize he wanted so badly but never deserved.

Goku, meanwhile, is the hero, the kind-hearted master, the guy who pops up out of nowhere to conquer the unconquerable. He had less connection to Frieza than anyone, barely even knowing who he is. He just showed up to beat up Frieza, because that's what Goku does. But again, Frieza was insurmountable. Goku did what he does, he brought out everything in his arsenal, unloaded the entirety of Chekhov's Armory, and to no avail. He fought strong, he fought smart, he exhausted every technique he knows. He went full-Goku and it wasn't enough. Just like Vegeta, Goku broke on the brick wall of Frieza's impossible strength. As far as Frieza was concerned, he was just some asshole who wandered into the plot; that was never going to be enough to overcome him.

Because Vegeta was right: only the Super Saiyan could defeat Frieza. Someone had to realize the legend, which was why he passed it on to Goku. Neither Goku nor Vegeta could surpass Frieza, but Goku realizing Vegeta's legend, completing the narrative Vegeta introduced but was unfit to finish, could.

In short, Frieza was Vegeta's villain and the narrative elements required to defeat him were Vegeta's story, but the universe went, "Yes, the Super Saiyan shall defeat Frieza, but you're a f*cking asshole and should die in a fire. Bring me a pinch hitter!"

edited 8th Oct '15 7:57:22 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26053: Oct 8th 2015 at 7:58:50 AM

Seeing as Vegeta essentially got scott free with all the shit he done himself, I don't feel like he deserves to get a revenge on Freeza.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26054: Oct 8th 2015 at 8:03:19 AM

Also true. The only reason Vegeta's bearable as a protagonist outside of just getting his shit kicked for the purpose of schadenfreude is because all of that is behind him.

In the context of, say, protecting his family or making amends for his past mistakes, it is possible to root for Vegeta. But in the context of his long-standing conflict with Frieza, he's still that asshole who, legitimate grievance or not, deserved to choke on his pride and die trying to surmount the insurmountable. Frieza is not a flattering context for Vegeta.

Back on Namek, Frieza was a Big Bad who needed to be overthrown, but Vegeta was a Tragic Hero whose profound character flaws would inevitably lead him to failure and ruin, no matter how legitimate or illegitimate his grievances.

edited 8th Oct '15 8:07:22 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26055: Oct 8th 2015 at 8:11:43 AM

Yea, I can agree with that; Frieza may have been a more personal enemy to Vegeta than Goku at that point, but Vegeta honestly didn't have much moral high ground, it was essentially Black-and-Grey Morality and Vegeta is A Darker Shade of Grey.

Goku had no personal beef with Frieza beyond just being an asshole, but it definitely got personal on Frieza's end once Goku kept pulling out all of the stops. Actually, the difference between Goku & Vegeta is what beat Frieza: Vegeta just lost the will to fight when he knew he was outmatched, Goku didn't care and would have fought to his last breath, Super Saiyan or not.

So yea, Goku definitely deserved it more.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26056: Oct 8th 2015 at 8:19:28 AM

Even from a point of motivation in fighting.

On some level, Vegeta always knew he couldn't win. It's why he wanted immortality so bad. Why he reached so hard for the Super Saiyan legend. Why he tried to avoid Frieza's direct notice as he was killing his men and plotting around him. Vegeta knew, deep in his heart, that he could never defeat Frieza.

Goku had no idea whether he could or not. He just wanted to try.

In Vegeta's fight, Frieza slowly stripped away his denial until he had nothing left but the naked truth. In Goku's fight, it was worth a shot to see what he could do.

edited 8th Oct '15 8:21:11 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26057: Oct 8th 2015 at 9:09:15 AM

I see your point.

Even now, when Vegeta has more than enough power to actually get the job done, his past deeds mean he still won't ever be able to kill Frieza, as Resurrection F showed. He's denied that opportunity at the last second.

It's a shame Frieza didn't try and hurt Bulma and Trunks. Then he might have been able to do it because it wouldn't just be about revenge, but about saving his family.

One Strip! One Strip!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#26058: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:01:47 AM

By the way, is there some reason Goku never uses Kaioken again after reaching Super Saiyan?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26059: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:08:40 AM

Well, if you mean in base, Super Saiyan made it redundant.

If you mean as a Super Saiyan, I think a movie had him do that and it destroyed his body even more than just normally doing the Kaioken does. That's probably the reason.

edited 8th Oct '15 10:08:56 AM by LSBK

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#26060: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:14:15 AM

Not a movie, his filler battle with Pikkon in the anime.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#26061: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:18:23 AM

Okay, I figured it would be that. I was just kind of curious since I never saw him even try.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26062: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:25:31 AM

Yeah, someone responsible for the filler parts of the anime thought having him bust out the Super Kaioken would be awesomely cool.

But because Super Kaioken is just a shittier version of Super Saiyan 2, it's actually kind of dumb, especially after he's already made such a fuss about how the Graded forms of Super Saiyan are pointless.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26063: Oct 8th 2015 at 10:33:00 AM

Yea, but he didn't have access to Super Saiyan 2 at that point [lol]

Its hilarious because Super Saiyan 1 stacked with a maxed out Kaioken still isn't as strong as the output of Super Saiyan 2.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#26064: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:06:38 AM

It depends on how the multipliers work. If it's 50x20 then that's a thousand times stronger than base. If it's 50x base + 20x base then it's still a 40% increase, which is pretty helpful if you don't have Super Saiyan 2 yet.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26065: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:09:39 AM

I'd assume it would be the first one. Which again, is a good reason not to try it. The most he could muster was that 20X power going to 1000X power would probably kill him instantly.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26066: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:27:03 AM

Good thing he was dead when he tried it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26067: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:28:10 AM

Dead people can still die.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#26068: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:28:36 AM

...the Super Kaio-ken is just Super Saiyan with Kaio-ken x2 stacked on it.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26069: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:28:39 AM

Yeah, it's just called ceasing to exist.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26070: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:30:54 AM

Imagine Super Sayian 3 stacked with 20X Kaioken.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26071: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:32:17 AM

You would implode so hard you might take your opponent with you.

Like a spiraling black hole of power. A void in the universe where a person once was. The greatest battle power crash since Yamcha was born.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#26072: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:33:24 AM

What if Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegetto used the 20x Kaiouken?

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#26073: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:34:49 AM

The universe would end in a Divide By Zero error.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#26074: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:38:11 AM

...isn't Super Saiyan 4 supposed to be stronger than a Super Saiyan 3/Kaio-ken x20 combination?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26075: Oct 8th 2015 at 11:38:44 AM

Well, everyone already answered Arha's question.

It's a shame Kaiouken became completely useless after a while. I liked the concept behind it. I hate that the way the story unfolded meant that not only was there no point to Goku fully mastering it (it didn't help him beat Vegeta, and it was useless against Frieza too), but that there was no point in anyone else learning it (since the enemies that came next were far too strong for it to make a difference).

But that's an issue that we've beaten to death, and I fully acknowledge that bringing it up again means I should get my ass kicked, so that's that.

One Strip! One Strip!

Total posts: 130,800
Top