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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#26026: Oct 7th 2015 at 8:05:29 PM

"I've been hurling you through cliffsides and you want to talk about my weakness?!"

My various fanfics.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#26027: Oct 7th 2015 at 8:08:02 PM

Man, that fight is just so slow. It has none of the energy of Goku VS Beerus.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#26028: Oct 7th 2015 at 8:28:06 PM

Technically that wasn't the real fight.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#26029: Oct 7th 2015 at 9:09:37 PM

You know, I feel like they should have had Vegeta have the finishing blow on Frieza.

Like, I know they played Goku and Frieza up as these two rivals going at it, but they were never rivals. From Frieza's point of view, he was just having a normal day, Goku just showed out of nowhere, fulfilled an ancient prophecy, beat the shit out of him, and never showed up again.

Vegeta grew up under Frieza's heel. He hated him his entire life and always wanted to get revenge. Frieza and Vegeta have had a lot of history, whereas Goku was pretty much a Diabolus ex Machina for Frieza.

edited 7th Oct '15 9:10:04 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26030: Oct 7th 2015 at 9:16:13 PM

@Last Page Not a phobia OF an 'irrational phobia of logical systems of measuring', I asked what was the phobia FOR an 'irrational phobia of logical systems of measuring', which a large part of the Dragon Ball fanbase seems to have.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#26031: Oct 7th 2015 at 9:46:01 PM

Okay, well in that case, "irrational phobia" is redundant.

Plus, one, no one is afraid of anything here that you post. :P

Two, you don't use logical systems of measuring, you just pull numbers out of your head that sound good and fit with your ideas.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26032: Oct 7th 2015 at 9:55:07 PM

You have no idea how much calculating I have done regarding Dragon Ball Power Levels. I have pages and pages of work estimating what they probably are just going off of statements like 'Bo G base Goku < 100% Freeza'. I even have estimated the 'curbstomp range': the point at which you become so much stronger than your opponent that they can't beat you in a one-v-one (which is when you're 30% stronger than them, by the way). My numbers are NOT random, though they aren't necessarily correct.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#26033: Oct 7th 2015 at 9:56:10 PM

If everyone doesn't accept your system (and no one here does) they might as well be random.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26034: Oct 7th 2015 at 10:00:40 PM

My system of Power Levels is no different from the in-universe system of Power Levels.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#26035: Oct 7th 2015 at 10:21:35 PM

I prefer the Latin American dub, though I do like how the English dub made it seem like Freeza thought Vegeta was still trying to serve him, something I didn't pick up in the former(which may just be do to me being piss poor at Spanish). Vegeta is the first one to inform Freeza of his weakness in the Latin American one though.

Oh wait, we were talking about numerical power levels again weren't we. Look, I'm fine with talking power levels but the decision to put numbers behind them was not a good one in my opinion. Not when there was no scale to give an audience what any given number actually meant.

As of now we know Freeza's weakest form, post training, is somewhere past the billion mark, assuming his calculations were indeed correct(and he's had how long in hell to go over them). That power level is higher than post room of spirit and time Piccolo and slacked off Gohan but weaker than base Goku, post mastery of Super Saiyan God. If I had to guess, I'd say final form Freeza post training is stronger than Fat Buu, since that was what he was aiming for. We know Golden Freeza is stronger than SSGSS Goku/Vegeta but weaker than Beerus, since Beerus and Whis say there would be no struggle if they fought Golden Freeza together but Whis only says it's possible they could beat Beerus together.

Buldogue's lawyer
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#26036: Oct 7th 2015 at 10:43:03 PM

My system of Power Levels is no different from the in-universe system of Power Levels.

Well, you aren't Akira Toriyama, so that's one big difference.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26037: Oct 8th 2015 at 12:38:36 AM

And I have never claimed to be. You can use measuring tape to measure 30 feet and than estimate 5 feet further based on how long you know a foot to be. I have NEVER claimed that my numbers are perfect, but I would like to think that they are at least slightly accurate.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#26038: Oct 8th 2015 at 3:20:03 AM

And if you hadn't given numbers that are ridiculous, that might mean something.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26039: Oct 8th 2015 at 4:01:12 AM

How are my numbers ridiculous? For context, some of my estimations for important, post-Freeza Saga, characters:

Android #18: 360,000,000

Piccolo: 400,000,000

Imperfect Cell (after drinking cities): 600,000,000

Semi-perfect Cell: 1,000,000,000

ASS 1 Vegeta: 1,350,000,000

SS 1 Goku: 3,000,000,000

SS 1 Gohan: 3,300,000,000

Perfect Cell 100%: 4,000,000,000

SS 2 Gohan: 6,600,000,000

Super Perfect Cell: 6,300,000,000

Dabura: 6,000,000,000

SS 2 Madjinn Vegeta: 8,000,000,000

SS 3 Goku: 32,000,000,000

Super Buu: 50,000,000,000

SS 3 Gotenks: 52,000,000,000

Gohan: 70,000,000,000

Buuhan: 122,540,000,000

SS 1 Vegetto: 250,000,000,000

Kid Buu: 30,000,000,000

Beerus: 10,000,000,000,000

Whis: 15,000,000,000,000

SSG Goku: 6,000,000,000,000

These are all calculated estimations. Please elaborate on what's ridiculous about them.

edited 8th Oct '15 4:02:24 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26040: Oct 8th 2015 at 4:04:40 AM

You just keep throwing the numbers out there, to people who aren't interested, without the necessary context. The practice itself is ridiculous if nothing else.

And this is from someone who also deals with his own battle power lists.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26041: Oct 8th 2015 at 4:20:55 AM

Before now, I hadn't posted Power Levels in many pages. This conversation started with someone taking an unnecessary potshot at me in the middle of a completely unrelated conversation. I don't post Power Levels nearly as much as I defend them when people decide to change the topic to rag on them for no reason.

InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#26042: Oct 8th 2015 at 5:40:22 AM

imo it's really hard to gauge power levels. All this system (and indeed, most Power Level scales beyond canon) seems to do is rank characters at various points on a scale given who beats who, how close the match is, then judging by canon numbers approximately scales the other fighters on a numeric scale.

Something important to realize: Cell Games Goku SSJ and Cell Games Gohan SSJ are NOT the same SSJ that fought Freiza. It's actually a perfected version of the original SSJ state in the same way that ASSJ was an overclocked version of base SSJ.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26043: Oct 8th 2015 at 5:43:59 AM

No, it's absolutely the same Super Saiyan. The entire point is that it's not another transformation stacked on top like the Graded forms Vegeta and Trunks used were.

They adapted themselves to the transformation, rather than the other way around.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26044: Oct 8th 2015 at 5:50:38 AM

So Goku had much higher power than Vegeta despite using a transformation that increased his base power less? No wonder Vegeta was crying.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26045: Oct 8th 2015 at 5:51:56 AM

Yes. Goku and Gohan simply became much stronger overall.

Then Vegeta and Trunks did the same thing themselves, and the Graded forms were dropped entirely. Except for when Cell tried to mimic them and got his ass kicked for it.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26046: Oct 8th 2015 at 5:53:24 AM

Yeah Goku's multiplier was the same 50x it always is while Vegeta's Ascended Super Saiyan was around 75x. Goku's base was just astronomically higher.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#26047: Oct 8th 2015 at 6:01:12 AM

So what was the problem with grade 2? Grade 3 drops the speed too low, but I don't remember grade 2 having any backups that would trump the increase in power it granted. Vegeta only lost to Perfect Cell because the letter was a lot stronger than him, not because grade to had a weakness.

It would seem to me that Goku would do better against Cell if he used Grade 2 Super Sayian instead.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#26048: Oct 8th 2015 at 6:12:08 AM

It's never directly stated why Grade 2 itself is dropped however Goku does say that the regular Super Saiyan state has the best balance between power, speed and energy consumption. Grade 2 probably guzzles energy reserves like Grade 3 was mentioned to do.

Furthermore he was only shown getting used to the burden of Super Saiyan 1, if he were to suddenly use Grade 2 again he'd likely be introducing himself to all of that burden again and wouldn't be able to maintain it for as long.

But it's mostly speculation since Goku only specifically talked about Grade 3's flaws.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#26049: Oct 8th 2015 at 6:51:27 AM

So maybe if not for the existence of Super Saiyan 2, Goku might have seen about fully mastering Grade 2 as well (not Grade three, since it's too slow).

Or, more ideally, Super Saiyan 2 is the fully mastered form of Grade 2/3.

It basically has all the advantages of 3 without the speed-loss.

Or am I late to the party on this?

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#26050: Oct 8th 2015 at 6:56:06 AM

I'm pretty sure Goku mentioned the energy drain in reference to both forms, not just Ultra.


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