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alioth Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#25701: Sep 28th 2015 at 11:21:50 AM

Alternatively, have Nail and Piccolo work together in a fight and fuse after that, rather then just finding each other and fusing.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#25702: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:23:53 PM

Right. I messed up my Tien post.

I meant to say "before Vegeta call and roftstomped Cell.

I was also talking about his holding the line moment against Cell, but botched the context.

At that point, what he did was more than anyone had done to actually stop Cell, even since both 16 and Piccolo were stronger than his imperfect form and still fucked up.

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#25703: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:27:32 PM

Guess I'll through this in as one of the occasional Tien supporters; I'm not looking for Tien or any of the humans really to fight on par with Goku or Vegeta. I would just like more stuff like we saw in Ressurection F, where they got to do something.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#25704: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:32:52 PM

I've said this before, but my solution would be to just throw in a couple One Piece-style henchmen for Krillin, Piccolo, 18, and maybe Buu. Tien could get one on a good day.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#25705: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:34:53 PM

Like in the early movies... where admittedly Goku usually just beat most of the henchmen by himself in the end.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#25706: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:40:46 PM

Though given that even 10% Beerus > Ultimate Gohan and Buu, such henchmen would look pretty pathetic now, I must admit.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#25707: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:45:59 PM

The larger problem would be expecting any sole opponent to match one of Earth's stronger humans.

Freeza brought a bunch of mooks that had 3,000+ battle powers, with the sole exception of Shishami, to Earth. They all died like the chumps they should have.

So, just do something like that. Have the earth be threatened by tons of mooks for the weaker fighters to flush out and kill.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#25708: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:48:04 PM

[up] I doubt Vegeta and Cui were the only super-elite ranked soldiers in the PTO. There could be some still around and at Ginyu level+ now.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#25709: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:51:04 PM

[up][up]I know I'm beating another dead horse, but how exactly was Piccolo struggling with Shishami again?

edited 28th Sep '15 12:51:16 PM by Lionheart0

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#25711: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:54:38 PM

So if the humans got 4 months of intense training. evil grin

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25712: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:57:07 PM

@Very Melon I hope we see other fighters fight the Mooks like 17.

@Black Yakuza: I said "will" because it hasn't happened in the show yet.

edited 28th Sep '15 12:58:41 PM by Cortez

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25713: Sep 28th 2015 at 12:58:54 PM

Alternatively, have Nail and Piccolo work together in a fight and fuse after that, rather then just finding each other and fusing.

That could work. The main problem with Frieza's Third Form is that it's utterly superfluous. He moved up to Third Form to start winning the fight harder, then moved on to Final Form for no real reason because nothing happened that could challenge Frieza's Third Form.

Frieza not being able to sense battle powers is as good a reason as any for why he kept transforming. Missing a Scouter, he has to gauge his opponent's level based on how well they do against him. The Scouter is his crutch. Without it, he's not comfortable if he isn't utterly dominating the fight with his overwhelming power. He transformed to Second Form because Vegeta wasn't immediately overwhelmed and moved to Third Form because Piccolo was pretty tough, even though he was sufficiently powerful in both instances to win.

But he goes to Final Form for lulz. Third Form is missing a genuine threat to make Frieza go, "Okay, their performance is improving. Time to transform again." Vegeta could fill that gap if Dende didn't take so long healing him, but another option would be if Piccolo and Nail were strong enough to combat Second Form, then they could have fused in desperation to put up a fight against Third.

edited 28th Sep '15 12:59:53 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#25714: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:01:28 PM

[up]Gohan, very briefly, challenged Freeza's third form but he was still in control of the situation. Makes me wonder of Toriyama was throwing out random forms like he did with Cell until he finally decided on a adequate one.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#25715: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:03:40 PM

Oh look, its this conversation again :V

Look, with the way the setting of Dragon Ball Z works, its always going to be pushing the Serial Escalation and Power Creep; that means there are constantly going to be new villains that are stronger than the previous ones that are going to outclass our supporting cast (because somebody needs to job to establish their threat level and to pave the way for The Hero to save the day).

Unless you make said villain weaker than previous ones, you don't really have an out...I mean yea, unless there's another Quirky Miniboss Squad but not many villains show up with that anymore. So yea, when it comes down to it...everything will almost always fall down to Goku & Vegeta to clean up.

[up][up]Would it have been better if Vegeta got his power-up and challenged Frieza before he went to his final form?

edited 28th Sep '15 1:05:34 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#25716: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:06:20 PM

Sometimes thinking about the Power Creep headaches makes me wish the series had either stopped at Frieza or that the later villains hadn't been stronger than Frieza but had additional gimmicks that make them more dangerous - the Androids can't get tired, Cell can regenerate, Buu can absorb and regenerate...

And I realize how hypocritical this is since the biggest Power Creep culprit... is Frieza. tongue

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#25717: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:06:31 PM

Shishami was just the stronger of the 2, that was his advantage.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25718: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:10:40 PM

At least in the Kai Dub Frieza decides to transform partially because he's noticing Gohan becoming more and more powerful and, thinking about him or Vegeta becoming a super saiyan, felt it better to cautiously fight in a form he was sure they'd never be able to overcome.

I have no idea if any such justification is present in the original Japanese version or manga.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#25719: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:26:22 PM

[up][up][up] The thing about that is, Dragon Ball pretty much spits in the face of Weak, but Skilled; you need both skill and strength in this series. So even if those characters had decent gimmicks, they'd still need to be strong enough to actually stand a chance against. Which goes right back to the Power Creep argument.

There's almost no way to avert Power Creep in this series unless you just take Goku & Vegeta out of the equation.

edited 28th Sep '15 1:27:24 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#25720: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:28:46 PM

Am I the only one here who likes this series for what it is, and doesn't feel the need to reinvent it into something else?

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25721: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:29:05 PM

@Very Melon:Not really, they were about even at best and then Gohan showed up and one shot him.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#25722: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:34:05 PM

Oh. I wouldn't know the exact detail because I never saw the movie.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#25723: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:36:01 PM

[up][up][up]I'm pretty good with things. I don't think anyone is talking about total reinvention just how they wish certain aspects were different.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#25724: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:37:09 PM

[up][up][up][up] No Shulgo, you are not the only one :V

Real talk tho, I love the series for what it is, I just get annoyed at it's tropes sometimes in all honesty lol. I'd prefer if Toriyama played around with his formula once in a while. Battle of Gods was pretty unique in that regard.

Then Resurrection F ran right back into it lol.

edited 28th Sep '15 1:37:25 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#25725: Sep 28th 2015 at 1:45:15 PM

Though, I would like to see a Weak, but Skilled villain show up, like OP's Foxy. Perhaps someone with some sort of anti-Saiyan technology; given their reputations as feared conquerors, certainly someone on some planet would've invented something like that?


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