I Am Not Creative Enough, I don't know why you would assume Piccolo wouldn't let him transform into his second form when he did nothing to stop him from transforming into his third.
This isn't conjecture, this is based on what we've actually seen Piccolo do in the situation.
edited 25th Sep '15 7:40:59 PM by LSBK
He really had no reason to let him, he just waited there...not even knocked away.
edited 25th Sep '15 7:40:39 PM by randomness4
Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.At this point I think the best way to make humans "relevant" is to just make a stand alone work about humans. That's what Dragon Ball Evolution should have been, in my opinion, a notion that's only grown in my head after seeing the PSP game(which is...decent, mainly because it's just Budokai with fewer attacks and no flying), Battle Of Gods (which reminded me their are an infinite amount of Dragon Ball timelines) and the Pledge Of Z music video, which had some nice effects and costume design.
Don't make it about Goku. Make the protagonists humans who have been trained to use KI. Include the staples, sure. A dragon ball hunt, a martial arts tournament, Journey To The West/Wuxia/Superman/Terminator shout outs, characters named after common place objects, the like, but don't copy the ones that have already been done, tell your own tales.
White guy who learns Asian arts and because he is the chosen one? Doesn't matter, he's not Goku. Energy technique restarts heart? Doesn't matter, it's not the Kamehameha. Action girl who uses guns? She's a scientist who made special guns that work with her own KI or maybe learned to turn her Ki into bullets. It would be something different for the series. Endless possibilities. And maybe if it proves successful we can get stuff like Dragon Ball Budokai: Original vs Evolution instead of Dragon Ball Budokai:less content addition.
Buldogue's lawyerIt's not like Piccolo could have actually stopped him from transforming into his third form. From the moment Freeza stopped screwing around in second form, Piccolo couldn't really do much to him.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariI'm aware of that, but Piccolo wasn't convinced, which is why Frieza decided to transform again in the first place.
More to the point, since when do Dragon Ball characters besides Trunks finish off major opponents without letting them power up? It just doesn't happen.
edited 25th Sep '15 8:35:28 PM by LSBK
Goku didn't start using the Kaio-Ken until Freeza powered up to 50%. The Humans can very easily keep up just by saying that they train constantly, more than the Saiyans, allowing them to keep up with the base Saiyans and giving them Kaio-Ken; allowing them to keep up with Piccolo. Give them all turns in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber also.
So, I've just been watching the older DBZ movies, and...I don't enjoy them that much. Say what you want about Super Saiyans overcentralising everything, but it allowed a lot of characters to remain relevant at the same time. From Cooler 2, Goku never really had a unique form. I mean, he had SSJ 3 in Fusion Reborn, but that didn't amount to anything.
The early movies give Goku so much importance, and it makes sense, because he's the only one who knows the Kaioken and Genkidama. Characters like Krillin and the humans in general show up and are completely useless. Piccolo is the only exception.
We never had a movie where Vegeta was totally useless. Or Future Trunks. Or Gohan. (Besides RF shut up I hate it too). Because they were all around Goku's level at the time, so they got to do stuff in the movie.
The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!Don't forget the Gravity Chamber. Tien does train constantly but it's fruitless because he's just sparring with Chiaotzu in the mountains, while Vegeta's doing crunches in 100-300x Earth's gravity.
While I disagree that the humans keeping up would add much of value to the series, it stands to be noted that the Gravity Chamber's easier to reproduce than the Room of Spirit and Time since it's a machine that Bulma and her dad can build.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Goku was using the Kaioken all over the place just to keep up, because Freeza was that much stronger than him.
IIRC, it's Tien who remarks that Goku still has the Kaioken in reserve only for King Kai to point out that no, he is using it to the best of his abilities and it's still not enough.
And the idea of the humans catching up to the Saiyans in a year is ludicrous at best. You know what the difference between Goku in Namek and Krillin in Namek, the latter of whom being the single strongest human of all time?
2,925,000. And if you count the Super Saiyan transformation, that's 149,925,000.
The idea that Krillin could bridge such a colossal gap in a year's time is laughable at best. Hell, they still didn't over the three year timeskip preparing for the androids, and they sure as hell didn't bridge it in the seven years of peace either.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariEven if we ignore the ridiculous power escalation on Namek that every human not named Krillin missed the boat on, they couldn't keep up before Goku became a Super Saiyan.
Matching Goku was always an impossible task. Even in early Dragon Ball, the humans didn't match Goku. Goku matched them. He rose through the ranks of the Earth's greatest fighters at a rapid pace and every time he passed someone, they remained passed. Tien, for instance, never caught up to Goku; Goku caught up to Tien and then Tien was surpassed.
Expecting characters who could never catch Goku to now be able to compete with fifty Gokus is wholly unreasonable.
edited 26th Sep '15 5:47:33 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.If Piccolo tried and failed because Freeza was too strong, you might have a point. But Piccolo simply sat there and watched him transform, so there's nothing to say he'd actually prevent first form Freeza from transforming.
It'd also be silly to suggest Vegeta shouldn't have goaded Freeza into transforming so that Piccolo could come in and win, he had no idea Piccolo would come in and be that strong.
I don't think people were really rude to Pushover once they realized he was serious. Harsh, maybe, but what they've said is completely accurate.
And frankly I'm happy for it because those ideas sound awful. Nothing mentioned so far has been anything new or interesting, they're just the same self pandering ideas that have been put forth a thousand times before.
Even if you succeeded in making these films, that would simply be another adaptation, another interpretation. It would not change the original work.
This is blatantly untrue. For starters, genes were not mentioned in any capacity for the first sixteen volumes. It's pretty hard to have a theme when one side of it isn't even discussed. Even during that period, the hard work isn't very common either - Goku's talent allows him to grow quickly, requiring less training for the same (or better) results than Master Roshi did in his day. That flies in the face of hard work.
Hell, even Master Roshi's training is about giving Goku and Kuririn a huge boost in a short period so they can compete on the level of lifelong masters. It may have been Training from Hell, but Toriyama would have to be snorting crack to think eight months of even the most grueling work can be as difficult to maintain as a lifetime of honing your skills.
It's only until the Saiyan arc that genes are brought up. When Raditz appears, it's not really discussed, and Kaio stresses the gravity of their home planet as a contributor to their strength. So Goku has to train in similar conditions to reach that kind of level. Then we finally get Goku telling Vegeta that a low class can surpass an elite with enough training, the first thing that seems to follow that theme.
He then proceeds to lose to Vegeta one-on-one. Eventually, Vegeta is beaten by teamwork and Goku's training was very important to this, but he still failed to prove his point at this stage. And then after that, Goku proceeded Zenkai (purely a gene thing) to surpass Vegeta and we get a comment from Kuririn saying the Zenkai is what helped Goku stay ahead of the humans. Then he becomes a Super Saiyan, and despite how difficult such a thing was for him, still comes from his genes.
Then in the Android arc, the Saiyan's training revolves around improving their race specific transformations including unlocking new ones while the non-Saiyans fall behind. Here we've got hard work and good genes working with each other instead of being pitted against each other.
Then the Boo arc comes around and says Goku is actually more gifted than Vegeta is, and Vegeta can't close that gap by working hard. Completely shredding any idea that Toriyama intended Goku as a character who used hard work to best talented rivals.
Next, Freeza is revealed to be a prodigy, and becomes ridiculously strong with minimal training.
It's not that training isn't important in Dragon Ball, but the biggest issue is that hard training and good genes are not mutually exclusive. There is nothing to stop the gifted individuals or those with good genes from training just as hard as anyone else and reap the full benefits of both sides. And that's what we see happen routinely.
It's no coincidence that the main cast can be divided into tiers of Saiyans, Namekians and Humans in that descending order of strength. That Kuririn is stronger than the average Saiyan means nothing, because he's not the average human.
One of the problems is that "hard work vs genes/talent" is that it's almost exclusively a fandom thing. Japanese works and fans absolutely love the genius/gifted characters, leaving western fans as the ones wanting to see hard work triumph. But it's extremely hard to prove one thing is better when it's possible to just have both. And when only one side can have both, it kind of makes their side the better one.
On humans catching up with the Saiyans: ludicrous. Not only is the difference massive, but they're not the Saiyans. They don't have the unhealthy fixation on training that the Saiyans do, and they shouldn't, because that takes away from one of the defining features of Goku and Vegeta. Also, Kuririn has a family, so he should never become as focused in training as those two are.
Even in that short period during the Trunks arc, if they totally bullshitted their way into being even with the base Saiyans, they'd completely fall behind when the Saiyans started their Android arc training. Meaning they'd never be relevant because they wouldn't actually be even with the base Saiyans at a time when that actually mattered.
Also, saying the humans can catch up with the Saiyans by training with them because they're weaker is like saying hot water can catch up to cold water in freezing. Hot water freezes faster than cold waster because it has more heat to lose, but it can't ever catch up with the cold water because as it cools down, the cooling slows down, and so it will be perpetually behind the colder water. It's the same thing with the Saiyans, but with no definitive end/freezing point. They'll gain strength faster, but always be a step behind them. They'll reduce the gap, but never close it.
And why would the Saiyans even jeopardize their own training gains by training with the humans? They'd hate that.
The fact that the humans never caught up again, ever, is a very important point. Every power up they got, only let them surpass an earlier version of Goku that was now outdated by the current instance of Goku. Piccolo, Vegeta, Gohan all managed to avert "once Goku surpasses you, you stay surpassed" rule a couple of times, but there is not one instance of the humans doing so.
edited 26th Sep '15 5:50:18 AM by Saiga
Before Goku drank the Ultra Divine Water, the Humans kept in the same league fine; some even occasionally surpassing him. I'm not saying the Humans should be equal to the base Saiyans, I am saying that the Humans could've at least put up a fight. The Humans didn't try hard enough or take advantage of all they were given. Training with the Saiyans would've given enormous buffs and made the Humans contenders. This is Dragon Ball, ridiculous power-ups are everywhere and the Humans would've been able to keep up if they had just taken advantage of them.
edited 26th Sep '15 6:03:25 AM by PushoverMediaCritic
Well, no, but he thought he was that strong. If he didn't goad Frieza, Frieza would have proven him wrong and then Piccolo would save the day. For once in his life, Vegeta overestimating how awesome he is would work to everyone's advantage.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.![]()
No, he didn't. He never indicated he thought himself capable of defeating first form Freeza, he was planning on relying on Gohan and Kuririn from the start and was still desperate for immortality.
Again, Piccolo fighting first form Freeza wouldn't necessary result in a win. It'd probably still lead to third form Freeza stomping him.
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This still isn't true - it wasn't the humans keeping up, but producing more fighters that continued to fall behind. Every fighter Goku met was quickly surpassed, and then stayed that way. Soon the Earth ran out of fighters to compare to him.
The humans never showed the capability to actually start out behind him and then catch up to him, they only ever managed to match him by being that strong before him. So there's no evidence that they could even remotely come close to the base Saiyans, not after the gaps just got even wider.
There is not a single shred of evidence to say the humans could reach the point where they'd put up a passable fight against the base Saiyans post-Namek.
edited 26th Sep '15 6:39:59 AM by Saiga
And then in Goku vs Tenshinhan it was revealed that both of them were holding back in all their other matches, rendering those showings moot.
Kuririn was extremely outclassed in his match with Goku anyway, which is why his Kamehameha was deflected by Goku's bare hand and he had to resort to grabbing Goku's tail. And then it's revealed that Goku was actually holding back by a significant amount the entire time.
Kuririn was not keeping up. Not even remotely so. So no, Goku was way ahead of Kuririn at that stage.
edited 26th Sep '15 8:06:56 AM by Saiga

Freeza powered up to 50% when Goku used the Kaioken x20, which took him to a powerlevel comparable to 50% Freeza for a brief instant.
The difference between Goku without Kaioken and 50% Freeza is of 57,000,000.
If Goku does not use the Kaioken right off, then he's dead right off.
Okay, no, he's not, but that's because Freeza won't escalate the fight. He'd just use enough to make a joke out of him.
edited 25th Sep '15 7:31:42 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari