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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#25326: Sep 20th 2015 at 11:10:32 PM

Actually, Goku being too naive and trusting was called out as Goku's big weakness all the way back in the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai by Roshi while fighting Krillin so it's not like it was invented for Resurrection 'F'. And I do think that trusting your enemy to keep their word can be interpreted as overconfidence by outsiders.

edited 20th Sep '15 11:30:30 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#25327: Sep 21st 2015 at 1:21:53 AM

Goku has been hit by many off-guard attacks and shown absolutely no damage from it. Further, Freeza's backup plan is completely nonsensical because it doesn't play on his experience with Goku - any time he tried to take Goku by surprise, he totally failed, so he's not exploiting any flaw that he knows about.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#25328: Sep 21st 2015 at 3:10:35 AM

Saiyans are naturally more durable than Humans when not factoring in Ki. Just because bullets don't kill him doesn't mean that lasers can't. Also, Freeza got Goku by surprise when he encased him in the exploding ball and when he corkscrewed out of the Kamehameha and nailed him.

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#25329: Sep 21st 2015 at 3:17:17 AM

Maybe it's a special laser specifically designed to hurt Saiyans, like a Kryptonite ring (Vegetanite ring?).

Also, a common trend I've seen in Manga/Anime is that any sign of weakness or distraction is called "overconfidence" (or a synonym, like "arrogance" or "getting cocky"), regardless of actual context for said weakness. Maybe it's a cultural thing, maybe it's weak writing, I don't know.

edited 21st Sep '15 3:17:40 AM by JonnasN

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#25330: Sep 21st 2015 at 3:34:53 AM

It's Vegemite! A Vegemite laser could probably kill a saiyan, any saiyan, in one shot.

Anyway, yeah...

We've been over this, people, it's literally impossible to sneak up on Goku, and Goku really should've been able to see that attack coming.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#25331: Sep 21st 2015 at 3:39:16 AM

The laser hit him from behind and Sorbet didn't actually do anything but shoot.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#25332: Sep 21st 2015 at 3:39:29 AM

[up][up][up][up] and even being hit by someone whose power wasn't many times weaker than his... didn't hurt him in any noticeable way.

There are numerous instances where Goku gets attacked while distracted, and shrugs it off. He once took a punch while he was turned away from his opponent and talking to his friends, and he said it felt like a fly landed on him.

[up] Goku can tell when Tenshinhan raises his arm behind him.

edited 21st Sep '15 3:40:25 AM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#25333: Sep 21st 2015 at 3:44:37 AM

The laser gun doesn't have anything to do with Sorbet's Power Level, Goku's guard was down, meaning his Ki was relaxed, meaning that Goku was only as strong as an average Saiyan, and Goku was focusing on Freeza and didn't know Sorbet was even there.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#25334: Sep 21st 2015 at 3:49:55 AM

The guns themselves are only used by weak fighters who can't produce anything better.

Nothing else you said was actually established prior to the movie and goes against several off-guard attacks being tanked Bamek arc and beyond.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#25335: Sep 21st 2015 at 4:14:13 AM

Name an instance in which any non-Saiyan tanked a non-Ki based attack from someone they didn't even know was present. All examples otherwise come from Saiyans tanking things they can logically tank without Ki, or tanking an attack from someone present whom they were aware of.

Freeza at 50% was kicked far away by Piccolo and, while he wasn't hurt, Piccolo wasn't using a laser gun.

edited 21st Sep '15 4:15:15 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#25336: Sep 21st 2015 at 4:20:02 AM

Pushover, you are actually wrong about a very vital part of your argument.

See, in his relaxed state, Goku's power doesn't decrease. In fact, it grows. You know why?

Because his 'base' state is not a low powerlevel. His 'base' state is very, very high.

Because they have to consciously suppress their power. It's something they had to learn to do.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#25337: Sep 21st 2015 at 4:28:36 AM

No matter how much you dislike that particular plot point in Resurrection 'F', it doesn't erase the fact that that plot point existed and will probably stay canon when Super gets to that part. If Toriyama has decided that this is how things work nowadays, who are we to argue and call bullshit?

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#25338: Sep 21st 2015 at 5:41:53 AM

Fanon Discontinuity

Goku remembered that Chi-Chi's birthday is the next day and he has nothing to give her. The sudden shock and fear of her wrath literally almost killed him. The laser thing was coincidental.

edited 21st Sep '15 5:42:58 AM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#25339: Sep 21st 2015 at 6:08:41 AM

While I agree that Goku being hurt by the laser is bullshit, I figure there are two explanations:

1) Frieza didn't just train for that four months. He spent that time creating a weapon that could pierce the body of a Super Saiyan no matter whether his guard was up or not. Sorbet's power level isn't known (I don't recall seeing him fly) so it's possible that in the middle of a fight, it was low enough that Goku didn't sense him, and since it doesn't use Ki, he missed it.

2) It's an Ass Pull, and the writers just didn't care, just like the excuses they came up with to keep Goten, Trunks, Buu and 18 out of the fight.

I don't really care which ones you guys go with. What happened happened. Maybe Super will try something different.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#25340: Sep 21st 2015 at 7:08:52 AM

Rool of Drooma :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#25342: Sep 21st 2015 at 7:36:52 AM

I really wouldn't say that Goku is more aware of Freeza's willingness to destroy a planet than Vegeta, especially since Vegeta worked under him for years. If Freeza had done it though, Whis just would've reversed time and the end of the movie would be the same, except with Goku and Vegeta switched.

Prior to that battle on Namek, Vegeta had never seen Frieza so effectively stymied that he loses his shit and ragequits the fight. In fact, he still never has; he caught, like, five seconds of Goku vs. Frieza in the space between being revived and being transported to Earth.

Hell, Frieza up until that point had never seen Frieza so stymied that he loses his shit and ragequits the fight.

EDIT: I would honestly be surprised if, prior to their battle on Namek, Vegeta had ever seen Frieza fight at all or get emotionally-charged.

No matter how much you dislike that particular plot point in Resurrection 'F', it doesn't erase the fact that that plot point existed and will probably stay canon when Super gets to that part. If Toriyama has decided that this is how things work nowadays, who are we to argue and call bullshit?

Fans are allowed to take issue with questionable plot developments.

edited 21st Sep '15 7:39:24 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#25343: Sep 21st 2015 at 8:03:15 AM

I agree that the way Goku was harmed by the laser was an Ass Pull. It's only there to give Goku forced Character Development for a defect he never had.

edited 21st Sep '15 8:03:24 AM by VeryMelon

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#25344: Sep 21st 2015 at 3:20:01 PM

I would say, Goku getting caught by surprise like that is arguably a worse moment than Whis killing any tension that could've been had.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#25345: Sep 21st 2015 at 4:32:41 PM

At least Whis has the excuse of being Whis.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#25346: Sep 21st 2015 at 4:46:07 PM

What a Twhis.

edited 21st Sep '15 4:47:16 PM by alekos23

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#25347: Sep 21st 2015 at 6:02:51 PM

I agree that the way Goku was harmed by the laser was an Ass Pull. It's only there to give Goku forced Character Development for a defect he never had.

I agree. I really can't fault Goku for not having to foresight to know that one of Frieza's minions would suddenly pop out a plot breaking lazer gun.

The aesop that I did kind of get from Resurrection was that it was something of a cautionary tale of Goku and Vegeta's tendencies to fuckaround and not finishing fights when they can.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#25348: Sep 21st 2015 at 6:12:06 PM

Again, Goku's naivety is a flaw he's always had which easily can be interpreted as overconfidence by outsiders.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#25349: Sep 21st 2015 at 8:46:41 PM

The "everyone can get hurt if you leave your guard down" thing is a plot point I actually like. I don't care if it's inconsistent. It gives the character vulnerabilities. If we don't increase the power scale, Goku is going to become a flat-out Invincible Hero. And that won't be very interesting.

I mean, when was the last time he had to struggle? Ever? Even against Beerus, he lost, but he still managed to absorb the God power and do all sorts of ridiculous stuff. He never gave the impression that he was actually losing. At least in the movie version.

That's what I'm really liking about Super so far.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#25350: Sep 21st 2015 at 8:49:33 PM

To be fair, how many times has this series had a character who can sense ki think they did real damage to someone with some giant attack, only for it to turn out that they barely did anything once the dust settled? Even though they should be able to sense if the attack actually did anything, since their opponent's ki would have dropped, or at least changed.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

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