Manga/Dragon Ball

A random question that just occurred to me:

In the "very strong normal humans" category, who's stronger, Chichi or Mr. Satan?

Chichi, definitely. While she doesn't do much in the ki department, she does train with Goten, who is terribad at controlling his ki and thus his strength.

Come to think of it, she was boomerang-decapitating large animals at age twelve, so I'm not sure if she belongs in "very strong normal human" or "low superhuman."

Satan vs. any of the more minor Tournament competitors like Nam and King Chapa would also be interesting.

edited 11th Aug '15 7:07:53 PM by HamburgerTime

It would, but we ain't never gonna see those guys again.

edited 11th Aug '15 8:30:58 PM by HandsomeRob

I figure Mr. Satan would win such fights. I mean, he was the champion between Z starting and the Cell arc, so he's got some moves, clearly.

edited 11th Aug '15 8:30:48 PM by Enlong

Can I just correct a misconception that has pervaded this forum recently? Gohan was not at half strength after Cell blasted him, rather, he was at half Ki. He wasn't half as strong as he was: he was just simply low on energy.

It is shown that these two things are different in the Freeza arc where, after giving most of his energy to Piccolo and Kamehameha-ing Freeza, Krillin could barely fly and he acknowledges that he is extremely low on Ki, despite not being injured in the least.

Perfect Cell is obviously stronger than Gohan: that is apparent by it kicking his butt the entire fight. The power scaling goes like this:

SS 1 Goku < SS 1 Gohan < Perfect Cell << Super Perfect Cell =< SS 2 Gohan

And if for some reason you want to keep misinterpreting the line than you guys should be reminded that the 2x Multiplier for SS 2 didn't come from Toriyama and probably isn't even the real multiplier. (it is an EXTREMELY tiny multiplier for such a massive showing)

edited 11th Aug '15 10:26:48 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

But people like to use information from guide books and author statements. They have some admittedly interesting implications.

edited 12th Aug '15 5:33:16 AM by IndirectActiveTransport

When Gohan wasn't actually fighting.

• The first part of that is a semantic argument. Half ki vs. half strength based on an example unrelated to strength. Krillin may not have been injured in the least, but he certainly wasn't going to be winning fights any time soon with his ki drained to the point he could barely fly. "Power" is not the fighter's current level of injury, but being injured can reduce their power.
• The second problem with that argument is that it's overfocusing on a specific definition of the words Gohan said. There exist versions of that scene where he says half ki, half strength, and half power. There are a few different ways to translate it because they all communicate the same intent: regardless of what exact word you use to say it, Gohan is worried about his ability to combat Cell becasue he's operating at 50%.
• Secondly, as Unnoun has pointed out, Gohan wasn't fighting back when Cell was dominating the fight. It's not hard to win a fight with someone who refuses to retaliate. Krillin could probably win a fight with a Gohan who just stands there and doesn't hit back.
• Lastly, the x2 multiplier came from an official source even if it didn't come from Toriyama, and has never been corrected. And no, it's not a tiny multiplier for such a massive showing because there's very little distinction ever shown between Super Saiyan 1 and 2. Gohan transforming into a Super Saiyan 2 also correlates to the moment Gohan stopped just standing there and refusing to fight.

Ki and strength are directly related to each other. Goku didn't receive any major injuries in his fight with Cell, but because he used up a lot of his ki, he wasn't strong enough to keep up wit Cell Jr.

Probably should have hung onto that Senzu.

Well...Honor Before Reason and all that jazz.

Also, he only had the use of 50% of his arms.

That doesn't change the fact the number didn't come from Toryama. Super Saiyan 2 multiplying power by 2 wasn't ever stated on panel. It's fridge logic later brought up by a guide that is in turn being used as evidence of Akira not thinking ahead.

There is a flaw in that reasoning, which I don't think I need to restate again.

Super Saiyan 2 doesn't multiply base power by 2, it multiplies base power by 100. That's 2 times Super Saiyan but that's still not a x2 multiplier.

...I'm pretty sure that's what they mean.

The x50 power isn't stated on panel either. Neither is the x4 of SSJ 3.

It didn't come from the manga, but it did come from official sources. Wasn't it the Daizenshuu who put those out? Can't remember.

Either way, fact of the matter is:

All Perfect Cell managed to do to Super Saiyan Gohan was give him a couple of scratches. I distinctly recall Goku, upon being questioned on why he didn't come down to help Gohan while he was getting his ass beat, going "Gohan's ki isn't going down at all", people checking and noticing that yeah, Cell is doing no damage to Gohan. Furthermore, Gohan was unimpressed with Goku and Cell's fight. In some translations I've read, he even thinks they might still be just clowning around.

SSJ 2 didn't make Gohan able to kill Cell. It made him want to.

edited 12th Aug '15 2:47:15 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

He says that in the English dub of Kai. He thinks that Goku was holding back against Cell even when he was going all out.

Back on the subject of very strong humans for a second here, how strong is Videl? She was actually doing some pretty serious damage to Spopovich, who's definitely superhuman, including at one point twisting his neck 180 degrees. He basically won because he has magic assisted regeneration and she doesn't.

He was also clearly holding back since he and Yamu are strong enough to restrain SSJ2 Gohan.

I'd place her as being the weakest of the cast outside of Bulma and maybe Chi-Chi.

Chi Chi > Videl > Bulma

By the way, what is Spopovich and Yamu's name pun?

Videl > Chi-Chi > Mr. Satan > Bulma > Yamcha.

Videl > Krillin > Tien > Chi-Chi > Hercule > Roshi > Farmer with a Shotgun > Yamcha

... Uh, what?

I know it's a joke, but Videl is kind of like more than a thousand times weaker than Krillin...