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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#19351: Jun 18th 2015 at 9:26:31 PM

Because thematically, it makes no sense. Why would there be a villain with henchmen with power levels as low as 75,000? Yea, out of universe reason is to make an opponent that Krillin won't immediately die to, but it doesn't make a lot of sense in-universe.

Because while 75k is impressive by earthling standards, its piss poor pathetic; Krillin isn't even in the top 10 of strongest with a power like that.

Now if you really want to show someone like Krillin being relevant without raising too many eyebrows, just have him fight some human mooks. In fact yea, more human antagonists are the perfect excuse, at least then the saiyans would probably stay out of it because they aren't going to bother with anyone who won't give them a challenge.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#19352: Jun 18th 2015 at 9:35:10 PM

Actually, on a cosmic level, Krillin's power level is still very impressive. As has been established, before Goku and Vegeta came along, Frieza and Captain Ginyu were the strongest beings in the universe, and everyone who worked for Frieza was a genetic freakazoid. Hell, even Frieza himself was a freakazoid. He was able to rule the galaxy with an iron fist, because his power level was over a hundred million, and the next strongest being in all of creation had a power level of a hundred thousand.

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#19353: Jun 18th 2015 at 9:35:13 PM

A guy would have a henchman at 75,000 because at 75,000 you have a henchman strong enough to take on anyone in the entire universe except the gods and the dozen or so beings stronger than said gods.

[up]To put it in perspective:

Freeza's powerlevel of 530,000 in his weakest form is more than enough to effectively conquer the universe, unless the gods get involved.

Before Goku went Super Saiyan, there was all of four beings stronger than Freeza in the universe. Supreme Kai, Kibito, Beerus and Whis. Before Goku trained in x100 gravity, there were all of six beigns stronger than Captain Ginyu in the universe, those being the above mentioned plus Freeza and his father. Before that there were all of ten beings stronger than Zarbon, being the Ginyu Force minus Guldo plus the above mentioned. Before that, there were all of twelve beings confirmed to be stronger than Vegeta, the aforementioned plus Dodoria.

So... yeah. Imagine how impressive a powerlevel of 75,000 makes you when, ignoring the main characters, it makes you the seventh strongest person in the universe.

edited 18th Jun '15 9:42:22 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#19354: Jun 18th 2015 at 9:38:18 PM

To be fair, those dozen are the main characters sooooo...

It would be rather hilarious for the stronger characters to be forcibly thrown to the side so they don't break the series haha.

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#19355: Jun 18th 2015 at 9:43:50 PM

But you're using Doylist explanations to why a villain wouldn't have a henchman of that level, when the real reason you need to provide is Watsonian, and from Watson's perspective, it makes perfect sense why a baddie would have a minion at that level. Because that level is frikkin' insane and well above the level at which you can wipe out entire civilizations in your sleep.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
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#19356: Jun 18th 2015 at 9:44:44 PM

I prefer DBZ's clear-cut power levels instead of the weird muddy power levels of One Piece.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#19357: Jun 18th 2015 at 9:56:48 PM

[up][up] But its kind of impossible to ignore the doylist method because of our prior knowledge of the series, otherwise we should be prepared to accept any instance of Plot Induced Stupidity and I don't think we all want to do that.

Addtionally, it kinda kills the Willing Suspension of Disbelief; you mean to tell me that we're supposed to take a villain seriously when his power is about as much as guys who gave the heroes trouble almost two decades ago? The only way you'd make someone like that threatening is if they were more threatening than their power level, or if the stronger characters were indisposed, and like Rob said, that's a bit too convenient.

[up]At the very least, I like One Piece's take on it more and fights are more than who's simply stronger but who uses their abilities better.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#19358: Jun 18th 2015 at 10:53:55 PM

The doylist perspective has no bearing here. From the Doylist perspective, the villain has that minion so that Krillin has someone to defeat. From the Watsonian perspective, the villain has that minion so that it doesn't have to do its dirty work itself and the minion is strong enough to handle anything and anyone.

Put simply?

It makes more sense to have such a minion than not to.

The real explanation why such wouldn't happen is the one I described, people of that powerlevel are incredibly rare and there's like, ten people on that level in the entire universe, tops, before the heroes kill them all. But that don't matter when making movies, since you don't have to bother to have them mesh with canon.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
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#19359: Jun 18th 2015 at 11:49:21 PM

I definitely agree with you, Hamburger Time. The real problem with Cell and Buu was, soon enough there was only one more villain to defeat. Cell especially got a bit too predictable. You knew Vegeta and Trunks were going to fail. Why else would Goku and Gohan have to train? Why would Toriyama focus on their training, when he didn't for Vegeta and Trunks?

If they have other villains, we know other characters can potentially win their fights without having to wait for Goku to bail them out.

edited 18th Jun '15 11:49:50 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#19360: Jun 19th 2015 at 12:22:30 AM

[up][up][up]No, pretty sure fights in One Piece are about who's stronger. Matchups only matter when the inconsequential crew members are fighting the inconsequential bad guys. The only well-known current manga I know where matchups actually matter is Bleach, where you can have someone league stronger than another be taken out because the abilities don't match up right.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
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#19362: Jun 19th 2015 at 4:19:33 AM

@Very Melon

Except it makes sense for SSG and SSGSS to look the way they do.

It shouldn't be some exaggerated transformation that just looks silly like SS 3.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#19363: Jun 19th 2015 at 4:20:09 AM

[up][up][up]I...don't agree, with any of that. Plain and simple.

[up][up][up][up][up]The doylist perspective does matter because the reader(aka us) looks at things from both sides.

Like I said, nobody is going to take a villain with a power level of 75k seriously, period. Its pretty much the same reason as people making jokes of the fact that Frieza was brought back and painted gold because of how piss poor weak he was to the protagonist by this point in the story.

Yea, there are only a handful of extremely strong characters in the Dragon Ball universe, most of them being gods and aliens who have surpassed them. 75k is still pretty impressive all things considered, but just because its impressive doesn't make it any less of a joke level of power compared to said handful of characters.

Like I said, the only way you could make a power like that look like a credible threat, is if you removed all of the aliens and gods from the plot just so you could make things look sorta tense.

edited 19th Jun '15 4:26:55 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19364: Jun 19th 2015 at 6:14:49 AM

[up] A main villain at that power would be a joke, yes. In my view, though, a henchman wouldn't. 75k would put that henchman above the Ginyu Force, aka the strongest henchmen in the universe at the time.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#19365: Jun 19th 2015 at 6:59:38 AM

[up][up][up]I don't even know what you're trying to go for there because it's a completely different side to an argument I never made.

I don't like the way Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan look more like a Palette Swap of the Kaioken and Super Saiyan 1 transformations and that's the end of it.

edited 19th Jun '15 7:01:25 AM by VeryMelon

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#19366: Jun 19th 2015 at 7:00:32 AM

DBH God Mission full theme song:

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#19367: Jun 19th 2015 at 7:08:19 AM

[up][up][up] If I recall, didn't Ginyu say his max was 120,000?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#19368: Jun 19th 2015 at 7:12:36 AM

Ginyu is 120,000. Everyone else in his squad never passed 60,000.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#19369: Jun 19th 2015 at 7:40:33 AM

Hmmm, well...it's not a bad idea for henchmen to be that strong I guess.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#19370: Jun 19th 2015 at 7:56:14 AM

Vegeta didn't see 'how awesome SSJ 3 is'. He saw it fail, utterly, and then he saw another one of Goku's moves, the Spirit Bomb, succeed. Vegeta saw that the solo powerup Goku and he could potentially share failed and that the technique that Goku learned because he's pure of heart and a good guy and all that shit was the one to kill Majin Buu. Hell, Vegeta himself suggested it.

You're saying it's the same thing when it just isn't. One is just Vegeta throwing a bitch fit over getting surpassed by not only Goku but also Gohan and the other is him acknowledging that Goku is better than him and it's not because of raw strength.

In both he is acknowledging superiority, in one it's just a matter of strength, and the other is the reason why.

Oh, the 'Vegeta has a realization at the end!' bit is rehashed, yes, I will give you that. But the realization itself is not.

That's not the order the events transpired in. The Genki-Dama was only used after Vegeta acknowledged Goku's superiority. The actual moment of revelation came while watching Goku fight Pure Buu as a Super Saiyan 3.

Like distracting Cell during the Beam Struggle, Vegeta's Genki-Dama plan then came about as a consequence of Vegeta discovering humility in the face of another Saiyan who has achieved power he will never be able to compare to.

Furthermore, Gohan now has a girlfriend and has fully retired from the fighting business he wanted no part in to begin with. Gohan might have become less useful in fights... but he doesn't like fighting to begin with. Gohan went from "Hero who sometimes studies" to "Scholar who sometimes does some hero'ing on the side".

As Saiga has pointed out previously, "Gohan doesn't like fighting" is a plot point introduced in the Cell Saga for the sole purpose of giving him something to overcome in the climax. He was all gung-ho about adventuring on Namek and training with his father.

Meanwhile, the Gohan that lets his power waste away and never makes any effort to be a fighter and have adventures at all is purely an invention of the Buu Saga. Before the timeskip, Gohan had some reticence but he overcame it quite handily.

To be fair, Piccolo got outclassed pretty quickly the previous time he got a fusion powerup, too.

Krillin in DBZA was right. Zenkai is just hax. It's the one plot point I wish they could have just removed. It's just too easy.

I can agree with this. It was an explanation for a thing that never required explanation. The idea behind genkai is rooted in the fact that Goku always came back stronger whenever he lost, but it ignores the fact that Goku had reasons to come back stronger. The main examples being:

  • When he defeated Tao Pai Pai after training under Karin and learning move prediction.
  • When he defeated Piccolo Daimao after training under consuming the murder-poison-water that enhances your strength tremendously if it doesn't kill you.

Goku always bounced back stronger because Goku had a reason to bounce back stronger, and blanketing them all with zenkai feels like it diminishes his actual accomplishments.

What set Goku apart from the others was his astonishing growth rate. The way he learned things so much faster and his strength grew so much faster. But "every time he gets knocked on his ass, his power triples!" was never a factor.

edited 19th Jun '15 7:59:20 AM by TobiasDrake

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
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#19371: Jun 19th 2015 at 8:09:23 AM

To be fair, the plot point during the Cell Games isn't "Gohan doesn't like to fight" it's "Gohan is afraid his power will go out of control and he'll destroy the Earth." Gohan didn't unleash Super Saiyan 2 because 16 died, he did because 16 recognized the problem and managed to convince Gohan that it's okay to let go.

On this episode of Dragon Ball: Bulma is almost raped by two Red Ribbon Army soldiers, Blue has someone executed, and even Goku is tired of Bulma's shit.

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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#19372: Jun 19th 2015 at 8:20:13 AM

Have you guys had any sleep since this single conversation started?

Because It's been almost an entire day since it started.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#19373: Jun 19th 2015 at 8:21:40 AM

There's at least 9 hours between I Am Not Creative Enough's last post and Tobias Drake's post this morning.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#19374: Jun 19th 2015 at 8:30:53 AM

That's accurate.

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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love

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