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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#19276: Jun 18th 2015 at 12:51:16 PM

Even if you kill me, you'll have to live with the misery. Regardless of what you do, I win!

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#19277: Jun 18th 2015 at 12:53:57 PM

Paraphrasing, but

  • "I'm sorry I screwed things up, Gohan," leading into "Kakarot and his son have both surpassed me, and now Kakarot is gone. I will never fight again."
  • "You're better than me, Kakarot. You're the best."

These are basically the exact same Character Development.

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#19278: Jun 18th 2015 at 12:59:45 PM

The characters who are retired in that 'ending' aren't really relevant in the Buu saga.

Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, etc, etc, they're not really relevant in the Buu saga. They are relegated to cameos and fanservice appearances.

Furthermore, Vegeta's rivalry with Goku was unresolved. They didn't have their rematch. Vegeta never acknowledged Goku was better than him and never had a realization of why, and he never stablished himself as better because there was no rematch.

To put it in this way:

In the Cell saga, Vegeta says that they are stronger than him and giving up on fighting in an uncharacteristical way.

In the Buu saga, Vegeta acknowledges why Goku is stronger than him. It's less "They're stronger than me! I quit!" and more "You're stronger than I am and I can see why". In the latter, Vegeta doesn't spontaneously and in a rather ridiculous fashion decide to quit fighting.

Gohan wasn't retired. His character arc wasn't yet completed. Hell, it's pretty damn clear the end of the Cell battle is setting him up as the main character. He's become a hero, now he needs to act as the world's protector, like his father before him.

And yes, while the Buu saga did un-retire Goku... It was a result of events happening in a way the characters couldn't predict. He also spends the entirety of the arc trying to go back into retirement.

edited 18th Jun '15 1:03:35 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#19279: Jun 18th 2015 at 1:09:35 PM

There didn't need to be a rematch. The rematch in the Buu Saga didn't resolve anything either because it got interrupted. We never got the definitive scene where Goku kicks Vegeta's ass once and for all, because neither character actually needed that to happen. It was basically there for equal parts fanservice and advancing the villain's plan.

Goku and Vegeta's fight was cool, but it was never a narrative requirement for either character's arc and it required a lot of backsliding on Vegeta's part. Even Vegeta says as much; his motivation for letting Babidi control him is that he wanted Babidi to reset his character to a point before all of his Character Development in the Android Saga so that this cool scene could take place, which is exactly what transpired. It's arguably the most deliberate and self-aware moment of Aesop Amnesia in anime.

Vegeta did acknowledge Goku was better than him. He didn't recite a speech about it, but he acknowledged that both Goku and Gohan had surpassed him when he vowed never to fight again.

Gohan's character arc was entirely completed. He had unlocked his Hidden Power and taken up his father's mantle. What was left unresolved about Gohan's story?

Also, "stuff happened in the new plot that pulled Character X out of their conclusion," is typical sequel logic. There's nothing abnormal about how Goku got dragged back into the story.

EDIT: Vegeta quitting in the Cell Saga is only spontaneous if you ignore his apology to Gohan, in which he realizes how his egotism and refusal to accept his relative strength has only made things worse for everyone else. Like I said, it's the exact same Character Development; he just didn't prepare a long-winded speech about it the first time.

edited 18th Jun '15 1:13:09 PM by TobiasDrake

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HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19280: Jun 18th 2015 at 1:16:35 PM

Given that you like Buu but not Cell, you're doing some impressive Devil's Advocacy here, Tobias.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#19281: Jun 18th 2015 at 1:26:25 PM

Thank you, because it's true. I love Buu. It gave us some fun and fantastic new characters, new concepts, and some great moments with our established characters - including the narratively unnecessary and fanservicey Goku v. Vegeta rematch that requires a massive amount of buffing on Vegeta's end and doesn't even conclusively end.

By comparison, I consider the Android Saga a convoluted mess of storytelling.

But the question at the moment is, would Dragon Ball's conclusion have been satisfactory for all characters involved if the Buu Saga had never happened? And, well...yeah. I would think it was a pretty shitty final arc, but it would be a final arc nonetheless. The ending of the Cell arc had more closure and more finality to it than any other arc, including Buu.

edited 18th Jun '15 1:27:43 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#19282: Jun 18th 2015 at 1:37:50 PM

The rematch did need to happen.

And we got one thing from it.

Vegeta acknowledging that there are things more important than their rematch.

You don't seem to understand how big that is for a character like Vegeta.

Vegeta's 'realization' at the end of the Cell battle is him accepting that he is weaker than Goku and Gohan at that moment in time. Him saying he'll never fight again and sticking to it is him going against his very racial traits and against everything in his character. It's Vegeta throwing a bitch fit because he's gotten surpassed, again. The idea that he'd stick to that is ludicrous.

What was left for Gohan? How about, I dunno, Gohan becoming what Gohan wanted to be, rather than what other people wanted him to be? You know. A scholar? You're a hero now, kid, but it's time for you to become what you want to be instead.

Nobody goes against their conclusions. I don't know where you got that idea. The only one who comes close is Goku, and even then, he still spends the rest of the series trying to go back into retirement. Yes, the plot conspires to give him stuff to do to keep him in the show, but when it comes down to it... He's still trying to stick to his guns about being a retired hero.

I believe that the fact that the antagonist comes out of practically nowhere is what is making you think that everything comes out of nowhere. When it comes down to it... there was ground to continue the series after Cell, and it continued in a plausible way following that.

Sure, I would've liked it if Goku had actually returned to the afterlife after his day was up and it was up to Gohan, Goten and Trunks to save the world after Vegeta's sacrifice ended, because it would've kept up with the spirit of the new generation taking up arms to save the world, but I'm not saying it's flawless, am I? I'm saying it's simply a higher note to end the series on, and that it did have reasons to exist.

I consider it a superior ending for the series and the characters than the Cell saga was, simply because I think the Buu saga provides a better end for Vegeta and Gohan, who are the only two characters who you could make an argument suffer from the sequel-un-retirement syndrome.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#19283: Jun 18th 2015 at 2:00:49 PM

Coolio, daddio. But I mentioned that because it was his respect for Torishima that made him do the changes and not because he had to. Don't really care if you wanna respect the dude or not, and never said you should.

Also of note, Dragonball enjoyed its highest sales while Torishima was in charge and forcing Toriyama to be un-lazy. Meanwhile, the editors Toriyama had for the arc after were more lax.

edited 18th Jun '15 2:02:31 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19284: Jun 18th 2015 at 2:14:46 PM

Got to see the Spanish(Mexican) dub of Resurrection of f which came out in Puerto Rico today.

Frieza kept referring to the hell he was in as Earth's hell, even listing it as one of the reasons he wanted to destroy the earth.

Was that in the original Japanese version too? I haven't seen anyone here mention it.

I also liked how Sobert was distraught when Frieza killed Togoma, guess he cared for him. Heck, he seemed like an all around better boss than Frieza. Not that is hard to do.

edited 18th Jun '15 2:16:52 PM by Cortez

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#19285: Jun 18th 2015 at 2:17:10 PM

Given that fact that there's only one Hell in Dragon Ball, yes it is. It's just a line the dubbers decided to throw in for some stupid reason or another.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19286: Jun 18th 2015 at 2:20:45 PM

...from what I've heard RoF actually sounds really cool to me, except 18 getting fight-screwed. Even Whis's time reversal.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19287: Jun 18th 2015 at 2:25:36 PM

@Zelenal was that stated in the manga though? Because a lot of the after life stuff in the anime was filler and was ignored in this film.

edited 18th Jun '15 2:35:29 PM by Cortez

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19288: Jun 18th 2015 at 2:29:10 PM

We're given only a few scant details about the afterlife in the manga. Heaven and Hell definitely do exist but are never seen, unlike in the anime. Most people end up as little puffball souls that are sent to one or the other by King Yemma, and there was a reference to Hell being a place where your sins are sucked out of you, and then you reincarnate. That may be what that tree is doing to Frieza.

Some great warriors get to keep their bodies, and Baba can bring these people back to life for one day at a time.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#19289: Jun 18th 2015 at 2:36:54 PM

Don't forget that one map that showed what the entire Dragon Ball universe looked like. Wasn't that actually drawn by Toriyama?

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Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19290: Jun 18th 2015 at 2:44:04 PM

I'll have to watch the Japanese version to verify.

Still, he clearly hated that adorable and cutesy hell and gets enraged when thinking/talking about it.

edited 18th Jun '15 2:44:56 PM by Cortez

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19291: Jun 18th 2015 at 2:44:59 PM

[up][up] Yeah. The universe is structured like a gigantic version of Kami's lookout, basically. On the flat part on top is King Yemma's office, which connects to Snake Way and the Kais' planets. Heaven is a huge planet floating above this, and above that is Grand Kai's planet.

Below Snake Way, you have Hell, and below that (I know, right?) is the largest portion, the Mortal Realms. At the very bottom is the Demon Realm, home to Dabura. The Supreme Kais live in a pocket universe that orbits the main one like a moon.

edited 18th Jun '15 2:45:14 PM by HamburgerTime

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19292: Jun 18th 2015 at 3:03:09 PM

Also, Mai is still referring to Trunks as her boyfriend.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#19293: Jun 18th 2015 at 3:39:52 PM

The rematch did need to happen.

And we got one thing from it.

Vegeta acknowledging that there are things more important than their rematch. You don't seem to understand how big that is for a character like Vegeta.

Which is a rehash of Vegeta's apology to Gohan. The main difference is that during the Cell Saga, Vegeta didn't sucker-punch Gohan afterwards and go blow himself up pointlessly, because he'd learned humility.

In the Cell Saga, this moment was followed by Vegeta being genuinely helpful. In the Buu Saga, his "realizing there are things more important than their rematch" came in the form of finding new ways to be counterproductive, and he only became helpful after being humiliated by the discovery that Goku was sandbagging their rematch.

Vegeta's 'realization' at the end of the Cell battle is him accepting that he is weaker than Goku and Gohan at that moment in time. Him saying he'll never fight again and sticking to it is him going against his very racial traits and against everything in his character. It's Vegeta throwing a bitch fit because he's gotten surpassed, again. The idea that he'd stick to that is ludicrous.

In the Buu Saga, Vegeta acknowledged Goku's superiority after seeing how awesome Super Saiyan 3 is, versus how much of a f*ck-up Vegeta is when he tries to take the spotlight. In the Cell Saga, he acknowledged Goku and Gohan's superiority after seeing how awesome Super Saiyan 2 is, versus how much of a f*ck-up Vegeta is when he tries to take the spotlight. It's the same revelation.

Your argument seems to be that it needed to be rehashed because the first time it happened, it was poorly written. I'm not going to dispute that. A lot of things about the Cell Saga are poorly written. But taking a do-over on a plot point that you did a shitty job on the first time is still taking a do-over.

What was left for Gohan? How about, I dunno, Gohan becoming what Gohan wanted to be, rather than what other people wanted him to be? You know. A scholar? You're a hero now, kid, but it's time for you to become what you want to be instead.

At the end of the Cell Saga, he was both. Chi-Chi made Goku promise that Gohan could come home and study once Cell was defeated. Between mastering his power to defeat Cell and his bright scholarly future, Gohan had everything. It's hard to imagine a better ending for him than that.

I consider it a superior ending for the series and the characters than the Cell saga was, simply because I think the Buu saga provides a better end for Vegeta and Gohan, who are the only two characters who you could make an argument suffer from the sequel-un-retirement syndrome.

It provided the exact same end for Vegeta, and it's hard to understand how "Gohan becomes the strongest in the universe but still doesn't do crap," is a better end for him. On the scholarly front, all he's accomplished is doing what he was going to do in the end of the Cell Saga, while as far as taking on his father's mantle, he's done such a complete 180 that the most important thing he did in the entire arc was making Super Buu more powerful. Instead of fulfilling the arc he set upon from the beginning, Gohan has now become negatively useful.

edited 18th Jun '15 3:42:12 PM by TobiasDrake

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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#19294: Jun 18th 2015 at 3:44:06 PM

...wow, this argument has been going on for a while.

For me, it's strange. I like Cell as an ending, but I don't think I would have wanted it to be the final end. The Buu Saga did something that they hadn't done since King Piccolo - they expanded the Earth, instead of space. We get to see high school! And the world of petty criminals! And what it would be like to be in the Dragonball universe but NOT be able to blow up planets!

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#19295: Jun 18th 2015 at 3:48:57 PM

Vegeta didn't see 'how awesome SSJ 3 is'. He saw it fail, utterly, and then he saw another one of Goku's moves, the Spirit Bomb, succeed. Vegeta saw that the solo powerup Goku and he could potentially share failed and that the technique that Goku learned because he's pure of heart and a good guy and all that shit was the one to kill Majin Buu. Hell, Vegeta himself suggested it.

You're saying it's the same thing when it just isn't. One is just Vegeta throwing a bitch fit over getting surpassed by not only Goku but also Gohan and the other is him acknowledging that Goku is better than him and it's not because of raw strength.

In both he is acknowledging superiority, in one it's just a matter of strength, and the other is the reason why.

Oh, the 'Vegeta has a realization at the end!' bit is rehashed, yes, I will give you that. But the realization itself is not.

Furthermore, Gohan now has a girlfriend and has fully retired from the fighting business he wanted no part in to begin with. Gohan might have become less useful in fights... but he doesn't like fighting to begin with. Gohan went from "Hero who sometimes studies" to "Scholar who sometimes does some hero'ing on the side".

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19296: Jun 18th 2015 at 3:50:01 PM

I will say that a lot of things in the series make more sense if you realize that Ultimate Gohan was originally intended to be the pinnacle of power. Whatever Toriyama's motives for changing it, it seems like it was fairly last-minute.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#19297: Jun 18th 2015 at 3:52:29 PM

[up] This. When you realise that Toriyama just changed his mind...it explains a lot of the ending. Even why they didn't just go and grab Gohan and Gotenks during the Kid Buu fight.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19298: Jun 18th 2015 at 3:59:45 PM

And frankly, I'm not sure Toriyama saying he made the decision necessarily means that someone else didn't tell him to make it. I'm told being extremely polite in interviews is something of a Japanese cultural trait.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#19299: Jun 18th 2015 at 4:08:21 PM

Being extremely polite period is pretty much a Japanese personality trait.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19300: Jun 18th 2015 at 4:09:58 PM

Point is, if he was forced to drop Ultimate Gohan, I think it's doubtful he'd outright say it.


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