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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#19226: Jun 17th 2015 at 7:42:30 PM

I dunno. I did really like the Freeza saga, but I also loved the Cell and Majin Buu sagas, as well. They introduced a whole bunch of stuff that I really love. Future Trunks and time travel! Villains that come from Earth! Character development for Vegeta! Cell's introduction making the story suddenly turn into a horror movie! Actually following up on Gohan's 'hidden potential' in the most dramatic way possible!

And then Majin Buu...well, there was as much worldbuilding in those few Great Saiyaman chapters than the entirety of Namek. It definitely made the DB universe feel more believable.

edited 17th Jun '15 7:44:03 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#19227: Jun 17th 2015 at 7:43:47 PM

Cell's my favorite.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#19228: Jun 17th 2015 at 7:43:54 PM

[up][up][up][up] I disagree.

For instance: Richard Dawkins? Total dumbass.

...Don't care if he has more degrees in my own field than I do.

edited 17th Jun '15 7:44:00 PM by unnoun

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19229: Jun 17th 2015 at 8:13:29 PM

I must say this guy seems like kind of a dick. Bashing women and works he made no contributions to at all?

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#19230: Jun 17th 2015 at 8:42:21 PM

He was Toriyama's editor during the Namek arc. It was his advice that kept making Toriyama change the Cell Arc's villains, even though Toriyama wasn't working under him and wasn't obligated to follow his notes. Toriyama respects him that much.

He didn't like 19 and 20 because they're an old fart and a clown. Didn't like 17 and 18 because they're punk kids. Finally, he didn't like semi-perfect Cell because he looked dumb, so Toriyama rushed to Perfect Cell.

This is from memory. Hopefully Saiga corrects anything wrong I said.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#19231: Jun 17th 2015 at 8:45:21 PM

... but Perfect Cell also looks dumb. Cell will always look dumb, because giant grasshopper...

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#19233: Jun 17th 2015 at 9:33:14 PM

It's definitely the codpiece.

It's always the codpiece.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#19234: Jun 17th 2015 at 9:35:27 PM

... but Perfect Cell also looks dumb. Cell will always look dumb, because giant grasshopper...

Better than a used tampon. :P

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#19236: Jun 18th 2015 at 3:56:02 AM

[up] ...oh, for gods sake...

Are they EVER going to run out of DBH card ideas? Ever?

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#19237: Jun 18th 2015 at 5:11:09 AM

It's kind of funny. Torishima praising F was repeatedly brought up to counter being skeptical of the movies' news, and I never saw why that meant anything.

The more I see him comment on things, the more I think he's seriously overrated. To think, if 18 had gone to fight in place of Kuririn, Torishima might not have rated F so highly.[lol]

When? We hardly see him training Gohan at all and, when we do, he's perfecting the Super Saiyan form rather than raising battle power. He obviously raised both his and Gohan's battle power but he did it offscreen and never talked about it. We actually see only three things from Gohan's training: Goku helping Gohan to become a Super Saiyan, Goku telling Gohan they're going to stay Super Saiyan as often as possible in order to minimize the drawbacks of the form, and Gohan training on his own while Goku meditates to achieve Grade II and Grade III.

And the whole point of making Gohan a Super Saiyan was to train that way. Gohan asks if he's going to hold Goku back, and Goku admits he will at first, but once Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan he'll be a good sparring partner. Now that doesn't really make sense if training in base is the most effective method.

It also wouldn't make sense to see Vegeta training in Super Saiyan, or Gohan and Goten training together in Super Saiyan.

That's fair. I forget how powerful the boys are. When was it credited to training as Super Saiyans, though?

Guidebooks. The manga just has Gohan realize Goten and Trunks might leave him behind after finding out they spar together. But the guidebooks explain how sparring Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan is an extremely effective method, lining up with Goku's intentions and their insane progress compared to Vegeta and Trunks (who also mastered the form but did their second RoSaT trip separate).

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#19238: Jun 18th 2015 at 5:16:23 AM

Dragon Ball's filler is worked into the storyline to a surprising degree.

Also, even if she's filler, I really like Hasky if only for Laura Bailey pulling off an incredible British accent.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
SaintDeltora The Mistress from The Land Of Corruption and Debauchery Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
The Mistress
#19239: Jun 18th 2015 at 6:20:23 AM

Cruuherx: How much Akira respects him has nothing to do with whether we respect what he says or not.

I had a 9/11 conspiracy theorist as a teacher who a lot of my class and even my friends liked, didn't change the fact that I had fantasized about stabbing him in the eyes several times.

"Please crush me with your heels Esdeath-sama!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#19240: Jun 18th 2015 at 6:50:13 AM

Man, Bulma's a real bitch, isn't she? I think it's said somewhere that Yamcha ended up cheating on Bulma which ended the relationship but I can't really blame the guy.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#19241: Jun 18th 2015 at 7:14:10 AM

To be fair to the former editor, conquering the alien warlord that destroyed Goku's race is the most narratively significant and thematic place the series could end.

Except maybe for the following:

So, obviously, if we ignore all other narratively strong possibilities for Dragon Ball's ending over the course of the story's run, then defeating Frieza is by far the best place the series could have ended.

And the whole point of making Gohan a Super Saiyan was to train that way. Gohan asks if he's going to hold Goku back, and Goku admits he will at first, but once Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan he'll be a good sparring partner. Now that doesn't really make sense if training in base is the most effective method.

It also wouldn't make sense to see Vegeta training in Super Saiyan, or Gohan and Goten training together in Super Saiyan.

Guidebooks. The manga just has Gohan realize Goten and Trunks might leave him behind after finding out they spar together. But the guidebooks explain how sparring Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan is an extremely effective method, lining up with Goku's intentions and their insane progress compared to Vegeta and Trunks (who also mastered the form but did their second Ro Sa T trip separate).

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

Man, Bulma's a real bitch, isn't she? I think it's said somewhere that Yamcha ended up cheating on Bulma which ended the relationship but I can't really blame the guy.

Yes, she is. People who criticize the idea that Bulma and Vegeta end up together tend to ignore the fact that Bulma is no saint.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19242: Jun 18th 2015 at 7:49:25 AM

[up] To be fair you could sort of say that Cell and Buu seem kind of post-script, since Frieza resolves the mystery of who Goku is and where he came from, but I still enjoyed their arcs.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#19243: Jun 18th 2015 at 7:58:07 AM

No, Raditz resolves that mystery. Frieza was stapled onto the franchise to escalate the threat level of Vegeta's plotline in much the same way that Cell was stapled onto the franchise to escalate the threat level of the Red Ribbon Army plotline.

I'm of the opinion that, in general, the Android Saga did a much poorer job of it than Frieza, but it would be disingenuous to say that Frieza was necessary. The mystery of Goku's origins could easily have ended at, "One of the last vestiges of alien conquerors whose planet was smashed by a rock," and then if Krillin hadn't been kept from killing Vegeta, bam. Show's over, intergalactic threat is resolved, bittersweet ending.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#19245: Jun 18th 2015 at 10:11:59 AM

Dragon Ball ended very well three times.

Piccolo Jr. was a great place to end the series. Goku's defeated Piccolo who Came Back Strong, was offered the position of God, got married and finally crowned himself World Champion, effectively making him the strongest person in the world.

This is why people are so quick on separating Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z even though they're the same series. It's very easy to consider everything after Piccolo to be a sequel series, even in the manga in which the distinction isn't made at all... At least in the Spanish version, anyway, dunno about the one in the USA.

Anyway, then Dragon Ball Z ends on another high note. Goku has destroyed a primordial force of evil using the Spirit Bomb, with the help from all the people of Earth. Vegeta's character arc is complete and he's finally become a 'good person'. And then, for an epilogue, Goku finally has an heir who will follow in his footsteps to become protector of Earth, And the Adventure Continues.

And finally... GT ended very well, too. Goku defeated his most useful ally turned enemy, utilizing the Spirit Bomb once more, this time charged with the energy of all those whom he met in his travels across the universe. He has one final trip around the world and has one last spar with his first brother in arms, after which he departs with Shenron. Then, for an epilogue, Goku's descendant in the far future finds the Four Star Dragonball when he's desperate for a wish and Goku appears to him to give him spiritual guidance, And the Adventure Continues.

edited 18th Jun '15 10:24:04 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#19246: Jun 18th 2015 at 10:19:43 AM

I honestly think you could make a good case that Piccolo Sr., Piccolo Jr., Vegeta, Frieza, Cell and Buu could all have been passable endings, honestly. Cell perhaps less than the others.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#19247: Jun 18th 2015 at 10:19:58 AM

[up][up]Well yeah, that still refer to GT as canon. tongue

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#19248: Jun 18th 2015 at 10:25:01 AM

Narratively, Buu's actually one of the weaker options for ending it, in my opinion. I mean, I love the Buu arc to death, but Majin Buu doesn't have the narrative strength or continuity of storytelling that the rest of the series does.

  • Dragon Ball started treating its conflicts seriously with the introduction of Tao Pai Pai during Goku's conflict with the Red Ribbon Army.
  • Tao Pai Pai led directly to the conflict with the Tsuru students Tien and Chiaotzu, appearing at the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai to avenge their idol.
  • Piccolo Daimao came about as a product of Goku's long-running conflict with Gag Villain Pilaf, who bit off more than he could chew in an effort to finally get one over on Goku.
  • The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai's primary conflict then emerged from the reincarnation of Piccolo returning for a second round.
  • After that, Raditz approached the series from a new direction, exploring the origins of Goku - a mystery that has long stood in the series ever since the little Monkey King popped up in the first episode with his mysterious tail and unrelenting strength.
  • Raditz's death snowballed directly into Vegeta and Nappa, whose search for the Dragon Balls and slaughter of most of the protagonists prompted our heroes into direct conflict with
  • Frieza, who brought the series focus back to the Dragon Balls and tied them in with the Saiyan storyline that had been building since Raditz's arrival.
  • With that story behind them, the Androids and Cell resurrected the Red Ribbon Army plot thread by exploring the unanswered questions behind the construction of Android 8 and Sergeant Metallic.
  • ...and then Buu just kind of happened. The Buu arc was sort of a hodgepodge of just throwing new ideas at the wall and seeing which ones stick. It could have easily been a new IP entirely, as it had very little connection with the stories that came before it. Kaioshin shows up out of nowhere to go, "This is a cool tournament you're having, but I'm the protagonist of this awesome show that has nothing to do with yours, and I'm not up to snuff for defeating my villain, so can your awesome characters come fight him for me?"

edited 18th Jun '15 10:31:58 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#19249: Jun 18th 2015 at 10:28:08 AM

Had Toriyama been working on Chrono Trigger at the time?

Because Lavos.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#19250: Jun 18th 2015 at 10:29:44 AM

You're just thinking of Buu as the antagonist, but that's not the only thing that the Buu arc had going for it.

It has the final completion of Vegeta's character arc, possibly the longest one in the entire series.

It has a technique that failed not once but twice before make a comeback and end the final battle, one that Goku learned long before all the new Transformations and all that stuff.

It has Gohan finally realizing his true potential and becoming the greatest warrior he could be. (Unfortunately he still sucks)

And more importantly, it finally has Goku getting an heir that doesn't suck.

In essence, yeah, Buu was some kind of out of nowhere baddie they had to fight, but the thing is, I don't think Majin Buu itself is the real reason why the arc needs to exist.

edited 18th Jun '15 10:31:32 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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