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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#18776: Jun 11th 2015 at 12:55:21 PM

Kaioken, Kamehameha and everything Ginyu couldn't do are learned techniques.

Super Saiyan is a transformation that saiyans can instinctually use if strong enough (and Bardock shouldn't be able to turn super saiyan no matter how pissed he gets). Huge difference.

edited 11th Jun '15 12:55:42 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18777: Jun 11th 2015 at 12:57:54 PM

...But I thought Super Saiyan was a thing about mindset.

A pure heart awakened by anger. In response to need, not desire.

And that they have to be at a certain level of strength first, but.

I mean, technically, Goten and Trunks transforming early makes sense, because it'd probably be easier for an infant to transform, because babies are pure, and they have lots of needs, and get angry when those needs aren't met.

As for Bardock, maybe Frieza's Supernova gave him one hell of a Zenkai?

...And, I mean, he did face Frieza to help protect his planet, his son, and his people; and he wanted to help those people on Planet Plant, so.

I don't get the impression that most of the Saiyans were that malicious about the planet purging thing. It was a job.

edited 11th Jun '15 1:00:26 PM by unnoun

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#18778: Jun 11th 2015 at 1:35:06 PM

If you're as strong as Raditz, you can't go super saiyan. You power needs to be a certain tier before you're able to transform.

The only reason Bardock got a Super Saiyan transformation is because his "Episode of Bardock" manga was written by a known fangirl of his, who leather pants'd him hard and drew him like a bishounen instead of the gruff, battle-scarred douchebag warrior he is.

edited 11th Jun '15 1:36:03 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18779: Jun 11th 2015 at 1:39:19 PM

He seemed to be injured when the people of Planet Plant found him.

Then they healed him. Which means Zenkai.

There aren't any power level readings in the special, because the Tuffles haven't evolved and invented the Scouters yet.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#18780: Jun 11th 2015 at 1:54:55 PM

We don't know how strong Bardock was.

We know his powerlevel is less than 530,000, but nothing more than that. Actually, considering he was never healed... it's entirely likely that his powerlevel is still under Dodoria's 24,000 even when he goes to fight Freeza.

I still doubt that he could have gotten strong enough to go SSJ, though.

edited 11th Jun '15 1:55:56 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#18781: Jun 11th 2015 at 1:55:46 PM

We don't really know what the threshold for Super Saiyan is beyond a vague "you have to be strong enough". We shouldn't assume Goku's 3 million is the bare minimum to qualify.

I mean, 530,000 is already unreasonable and far beyond anything that any Saiyan before Goku and Vegeta could have ever hoped to achieve. Hell, 100,000 is far more than any Saiyan before Goku and Vegeta could hope to achieve.

edited 11th Jun '15 1:56:58 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#18782: Jun 11th 2015 at 1:57:39 PM

Vegeta was at ~530,000 when he fought Freeza in his first form.

Vegeta was even stronger than that later, when Freeza killed him.

Before killing him, Freeza broke him.

Vegeta did not transform then. I'd say... While we can't really say that 3,000,000 is the bare minimum, we can say that it ought to be close.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18783: Jun 11th 2015 at 1:58:03 PM

"Episode of Bardock" manga was written by a known fangirl of his, who leather pants'd him hard and drew him like a bishounen instead of the gruff, battle-scarred douchebag warrior he is.

...Ignoring the misogyny there for a moment, I could have sworn the writer was someone who, according to Toriyama, knows Dragon Ball better than he does.

[up] I thought Vegeta was at 250,000 that entire time.

And Vegeta didn't get angry enough.

When he got broken, he got depressed and sad and started crying.

Not angry.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:00:29 PM by unnoun

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#18784: Jun 11th 2015 at 1:59:32 PM

Knowing Dragon Ball better than Toriyama does isn't very difficult, though.

By the by, Vegeta fought evenly with first form Freeza. If he had been at 250,000... Well, Freeza would've stomped him ridiculously easily and would have only transformed when Piccolo showed up. Though Piccolo might have killed him before he had the chance to.

Vegeta's first response to pretty much anything is anger. Vegeta only got depressed and sad after Freeza spent some time tenderizing his insides and showing him how outclassed he was.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:02:03 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18785: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:01:29 PM

Actually, considering he was never healed

...I could have sworn he was.

And it seems like the Supernova actually did hit him for a second before he went back in time, so.

Vegeta's first response to pretty much anything is anger.

Except just this one time.

And it's not just anger, it's anger and desperate need.

When he was angry, he wasn't desperate, and when he was desperate, he wasn't angry.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:03:13 PM by unnoun

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#18786: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:03:18 PM

Between Dodoria and Freeza? No, he wasn't.

Vegeta was angry and desperate and he needed to defeat Freeza to avenge his race.

He was not powerful enough to transform to satisfy his need for revenge.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:03:59 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18787: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:06:45 PM

I could still have sworn Vegeta was still at 250,000 at the time.

Like, there was a guide thing, and TFS did a joke about it.

No, it doesn't make sense, but power levels never do. tongue

...And I feel like his ego overrode his desperation for most of the fight there.

And after Frieza, when Bardock was on Planet Plant, the people gave him some healing medicine stuff.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:10:55 PM by unnoun

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#18788: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:10:47 PM

I think Bardock was 10,000 by the time he tried to fight Freeza. So as a Super Saiyan he would be 500,000.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#18789: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:16:46 PM

Vegeta was 250,000 when the fight with Frieza started. Frieza didn't have to transform, but he can't sense battle powers so he wouldn't know that. Vegeta put in a good enough showing that Frieza was comfortable kicking it up a notch, especially after Vegeta started goading him about it.

Frieza would again transform needlessly when he decides, in the middle of curbstomping Piccolo in Third Form, that he's going to unveil his Final Form for shits and giggles. He also takes his time playing with his percentage against Goku. Throughout the battle, Frieza was sadistically enjoying the one-sided beatdown and drawing out the kill, only getting serious after the Genki-Dama made the battle no longer entertaining.

Vegeta callously dismissed the need to avenge his race early on when he arrived on Namek. He also murdered Nappa. Vegeta never gave any impression he gave two shits about his race until he lay dying in the dirt at Goku's feet, and dying has a way of bringing clarity to a person.

Vegeta wanted to kill Frieza for Vegeta. He wanted to be the strongest in the universe, to be an immortal and unstoppable warrior forever. He didn't need the Super Saiyan transformation for anything more than to prove how awesome Vegeta is, so he didn't get it.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:18:53 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#18790: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:18:45 PM

Random thought:

Gohan takes Goku's advice, kamehameha's the fuck outta Cell.

Goku doesn't die. How drastically does this alter the future? Aside from Krillin probably never getting laid.

My various fanfics.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18791: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:19:28 PM

Frieza didn't have to transform, but he can't sense battle powers so he wouldn't know that.

...I completely forgot about that.

I also get the sense that there's not much Frieza hates more than a fair fight.

[up] Why not?

I mean, they wouldn't need to bring Goku back, so Krillin could still remove the bombs.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:22:24 PM by unnoun

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#18792: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:22:22 PM

Oh, right. The androids'd get brought back. Brain fart on my end.

I guess Vegeta wouldn't be Majin-able, 'cause Goku and him would have their rematch. Goten'd probably be stronger with Papa to train him.

Chi Chi wanted Goku to get a job so....Goku the lumberjack.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:22:38 PM by SonOfSharknado

My various fanfics.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18793: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:23:33 PM

Also, 18 was already spit up by Cell.

...Wait, it depends on when Gohan kamehamehas Cell.

Because, I mean, he keeps playing with Cell even when Cell reverts to Semiperfect Form. Even with Goku and Piccolo yelling at him to finish it.

Of course, I think if Gohan had destroyed Cell it would probably technically have counted as Gohan killing 17.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:26:10 PM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#18794: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:24:07 PM

The Tenkaichi Budokai rematch would have still been postponed exactly like it was, but there wouldn't be the pressing urgency of, "If it doesn't happen now, it won't ever happen because this is the last time I'm ever going to see Kakarot again."

  • GOKU: Finish it, Gohan! He's vulnerable!
  • GOHAN: He's a bastard and I'm going to savor this!
  • PICCOLO: Because that worked out so well for Frieza!
  • GOHAN: ...that's actually a good point. Finishing it now.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:25:31 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18795: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:27:03 PM

I mean, Goku, Vegeta, or Trunks could have finished the fight at that point. Possibly even Piccolo, depending on how much he got out of that trip in the Time Chamber.

They'd all had a Senzu.

...I feel like all of them might have been a bit scared to get in Gohan's way at that point though.

edited 11th Jun '15 2:29:03 PM by unnoun

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#18796: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:28:10 PM

I was more referencing to them just having an unofficial rematch in the intermediate seven years.

My various fanfics.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18797: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:31:19 PM

Semiperfect Cell wasn't shit without that self-destruct.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#18798: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:32:37 PM

  • CELL: When I explode, I'll take the entire planet with me!
  • GOKU: Well, I guess there's only one thing I can do.
  • GOHAN: Dad, no! Don't sacrifice yourself!
  • GOKU: What? Don't be silly, Gohan. I'm throwing him into space. Why would I Chiaotzu myself?

edited 11th Jun '15 2:33:04 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#18799: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:35:10 PM

Gohan could have killed him before the self destruct even activated.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#18800: Jun 11th 2015 at 2:37:21 PM

The WMAT probably wouldn't happen on the way it did.

Goku and Vegeta have no real reason to join. Goku joined to spend the day with his family doing something he loved and having fun and stuff. Also an excuse to fight Gohan to see how much he has improved. Vegeta joined to fight Goku. If Goku knows that Gohan hasn't trained at all, he knows there's no point in joining the tournament, since he won't get any fun fights. Without Goku joining, none of the others would throw their lot in.

So I don't think it would go the way it did.

They'd probably still go watch, though, if only to make fun of Gohan because of his relationship with Videl. Then the Supreme Kai would show up, and Goku and Vegeta would probably tell Gohan to stay at the tournament since he would be so much weaker than either of them that he'd be a load they have to carry...

... And since Vegeta most likely has an ongoing rivalry with Goku that has regular fights, he would most likely No-Sell Babidi's attempt at controlling him, Buu would never be brought back because they'd wtfstomp Dabura quickly... and basically the Buu saga is resolved just like that.

Unfortunately for everyone when Beerus shows up they're all too weak and Earth gets blown up. No problem, though, they bring it back with the Namekian Dragonballs later.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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