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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#17901: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:06:51 PM

18 has never been shown to be all that interested in fighting in the first place. The only reason she joined the Tenkaichi Budokai is because she wanted the prize money. All of her actions in the Buu Saga just show, to me at least, that she's more concerned about taking care of her family. The only reason she and 17 went after Goku at first was because they had nothing better to do. Even 17, who seemed far more interested in fighting, settled down with a family to range the shit out of some park.

As for Resurrection "F", it really didn't matter who was sent and who stayed. Krillin was already vastly more powerful than basically everyone in Freeza's army so sending someone who's even more powerful wouldn't have made that great of a difference. While 18 could probably take care of more enemies quicker and thus reduce the chances of Maron being put in danger, she'd also have an easier time defending her if someone actually got through. Both strategies have their merits and one isn't inherently better than the other.

Of course, there's no reason why they couldn't have just sent 18 but I don't see that as an excuse to start flinging accusations of sexism. Especially since Krillin is undoubtedly a more popular character than 18 and thus giving him more screen time makes some sense.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17902: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:09:21 PM

Sorry, five female characters, I forgot Videl. She contributed by being humiliated and broken in her only serious fight scene, the Tenkaichi Budokai, so as to kick off the Buu Saga.

edited 2nd Jun '15 12:09:38 PM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17903: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:12:15 PM

If it helps I personally believe she's a better fighter than Spopovitch, and the only reason he started winning is because he's an inhuman freak (she kicked him so hard, his head turned clean around. That says a lot about how much Videl was holding back).

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17904: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:12:23 PM

Sexism isn't an accusation. It's an observation.

There's not a lot that isn't sexist.

Like, there's some tribes in Africa, the Mbuti and the Aka, where men and women are truly equal in status.

That's about it.

In our society, and in Japanese society, men and women are not equal in status. And on every level socially, culturally, politically, and economically, this inequality is consistently reinforced. Our society is so fundamentally broken that anything and everything can validly be labeled sexist.

edited 2nd Jun '15 12:20:17 PM by unnoun

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#17905: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:23:18 PM

So everything's sexist, everything's racist, and everything's anti-gay. Are we done here? We're done.

[up][up] She is. She was rather easily winning that fight until the Majin boost kicked in.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17906: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:24:26 PM

No, we're not done.

We're never done, until we can work to do what we can to eliminate these structural biases.

The first step is admitting that there's a problem.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#17907: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:26:08 PM

I have a problem.

My problem is that I'm addicted to Dragon Ball.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17908: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:26:14 PM

Well, it no made clear if it's the boost kicking in, or Spopovitch holding back out of sadism (to get Revenge by Proxy on Satan).

I always assumed it was the former, but it wasn't all acting and she is a better fighter, or at least better trained.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17909: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:28:40 PM

And yet when Vegeta gets crushingly broken and humiliated in front of an audience of helpless spectators, it's because his opponent vastly exceeds his ability. Also, because he's a shithead and it's funny to watch him suffer.

What happens to Videl can only be described as steady, gratuitous on-screen torture. Why did she deserve that in her only major fight in the entire franchise?

EDIT: For another comparison, when Mark Satan is hilariously outmatched by his opponent, Cell bitchslaps him into a column and that's the end of that. It's short, anticlimactic, and hilarious.

When Videl Satan is hilariously outmatched by her opponent, he graphically brutalizes her on-screen for a prolonged period, even dragging her back from escaping the ring so that he can lay more punishment on her. It's gratuitous, horrific, and played entirely straight.

edited 2nd Jun '15 12:34:19 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#17910: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:39:01 PM

Well, she is a worthless human and, by that point, we were firmly in the "No one other than Saiyans and Mr. Satan matter" territory. She's almost certainly weaker than even Yamcha so it's not like she could do anything.

As for why her one fight is one of the most brutal beat downs in all of Dragon Ball, well, that's certainly a question. However, I think a better question would be why no one bothered to step in until she was almost dead. I mean, surely the Tenkaichi Budokai had rules put in place against overt brutality after the 22nd or 23rd one (especially once it became an extremely popular event).

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17911: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:40:34 PM

[up][up]Pretty much.

I think that in Spopovitch's case, we can't pin the blame on the Majin upgrade (it definitely makes you more evil, though Vegeta implies that if you have the will power you can resist it) or his probable desire for revenge on Satan, and assume that both were playing a huge role in his actions,

We don't know what he was like before hand, but it's rather unimportant now.

Videl had the poor luck of being the Sacrificial Lamb, but then again, as this is before Satan starts revealing some of his nobler character traits, it might not have meant as much if Spopovitch had wailed on anyone else besides Videl, who we'd gotten to know quite a bit before hand.

[up]Spopovitch as brutal as he was being, wasn't actually breaking any rules at that point. That being said, he was stretching them enough that someone likely should have done something (which Gohan would have if Yamu hadn't put his foot down).

The audience (even the Z Warriors) seemed so utterly shocked, that I think nobody had ever done something like that before. Even Piccolo followed the rules to the letter, and he wanted to conquer the world.

edited 2nd Jun '15 12:42:50 PM by HandsomeRob

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17912: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:43:05 PM

Videl had the poor luck of being the Sacrificial Lamb, but then again, as this is before Satan starts revealing some of his nobler character traits, it might not have meant as much if Spopovitch had wailed on anyone else besides Videl, who we'd gotten to know quite a bit before hand.

Which is another thing, actually. Spopovich's motivation for brutalizing Videl is that he's pissed off at her dad. Meanwhile, the narrative purpose for letting Spopovich brutalize Videl is to anger Gohan. No part of this has anything to do with Videl; she was made to suffer for the benefit of two male characters.

The only thing stopping this from being an example of Women in Refrigerators is that Videl didn't actually die from it.

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#17913: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:43:16 PM

The point was that to make Gohan angry it had to be such an ugly, painful prolonged beat down. If she just lost in a normal clean fashion then it would make no sense for him to lose control and go Super Sayian 2.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17914: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:44:15 PM

[up][up]

This is true.

[up]

This is also true.

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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#17915: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:45:23 PM

"So everything's sexist, everything's racist, and everything's anti-gay. Are we done here? We're done."

You should take that act to the MCU thread. We have that discussion like once an hour.

My various fanfics.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17916: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:45:26 PM

[up][up][up][up] Actually, when Gail Simone last talked about women in refrigerators I don't think death was necessarily a requirement.

[up][up][up] That's part of the problem.

[up] Yes, I'm sure other threads need more patronizing sarcasm.

I'm doing what I can to meet the quota. tongue

edited 2nd Jun '15 12:53:48 PM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17917: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:45:53 PM

And all this to build up a character who would be unceremoniously killed off immediately after the plot actually begins.

Dodoria had more plot relevance than Spopovich.

edited 2nd Jun '15 12:46:57 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#17918: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:47:04 PM

Yeah, but the plot can't begin unless Gohan goes Super Sayian 2.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17919: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:49:59 PM

Maybe Supreme Kai could have known about Super Saiyan 2 beforehand? And told Gohan to power up?

Maybe Spopovich could have been Krillin's opponent?

...Maybe it could have been Yamcha, because losing in the first round to the main villain of the tournament arc is sorta his thing?

Maybe a dozen other things could have happened instead?

edited 2nd Jun '15 12:50:19 PM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17920: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:50:34 PM

I don't even think he went Super Saiyan 2. I'm pretty sure he never got that far.

So here's a thought: It likely wouldn't have worked, but Videl never tried to throw Spopovitch out of the ring. She seemed focused on knocking him out.

Now if she's tried throwing him out of the ring, and he'd been forced to reveal he could fly earlier in the fight, and thereby, stop screwing around and reveal his true strength much sooner, would she have considered giving up earlier?

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17921: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:51:40 PM

It totally can. There are numerous narrative methods in which the plot could have started without Videl's gratuitous torture scene. You could have Gohan's Base or Super Saiyan power be drained instead of his Super Saiyan 2. You could have Gohan face an opponent who challenges him enough to transform into Super Saiyan 2. You could have Goku or Vegeta get drained instead.

You could even leave that scene in but give Videl other things to do so her character's entire combat history is not defined by the one time she was tortured half to death by a bulky, male sadist while millions of people watched. Hell, even just giving her a rematch with Spopovich where she kicks his ass once the plot had begun would go a long ways towards fixing that scene.

The argument of "that scene sucks, but it's absolutely vital, and the story cannot work without it," is rarely if ever true.

edited 2nd Jun '15 12:52:42 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17922: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:51:48 PM

If all the plot needed was for Gohan to go Super Saiyan 2, then have Gohan fight a much stronger Spopovich. Spopo would be too much for Super Saiyan 1 Gohan, so Gohan would need to increase his level in order to win.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17923: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:52:01 PM

Maybe they could have just not had a gratuitous torture scene?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17924: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:53:02 PM

That would be the best solution!

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17925: Jun 2nd 2015 at 12:53:06 PM

Logic. It's a wonderful thing.

edited 2nd Jun '15 12:53:21 PM by HandsomeRob

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