TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17626: May 28th 2015 at 1:58:12 PM

From what I understand, the entire point of this debate is you being dismissive of canon and fandoms that insist on using it.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17627: May 28th 2015 at 2:12:11 PM

I mean, I'm not the one that said that Death of the Author, which is an actual thing in literary criticism actually used in academic circles, was meaningless and worthless, or made by idiots, petulant children, or people with overinflated egos. That wasn't me. I never said that any one of Toriyama's interpretations of anything was wrong. I said it didn't have to be right.

...I'm almost not entirely sure how authorial intent even entered into this. Or why any of you think the things you do about it.

I mean.

Our quotes page for Death of the Author is filled from quotes from actual authors. And their works, even.

I think what I object most to is the idea that all stories have to work this way, that what the author says is right by default because they are the author. And the thing about that is, no, it only works that way if the Author chooses to take that authority.

...Author. Authority. Huh.

I know for a fact that there are times where authors reject that authority. Refuse to say anything about their work. In other instances, they try to do the best they can to say that they want to allow interpretations.

And other times they throw hissy fits because people are playing with their toys wrong. I remember some indie video game thing where that happened.

The idea that canon is something that comes from authors is especially ridiculous since the current usage of the term didn't come from an author. Didn't even come from fans either. It came from making fun of fans.

By the by, there's a very, very old rule of the playground, it's one of the first rules that are learned along with "you don't hit girls" and "the one who calls the teacher is a baby".

Never liked those rules.

Partly because I was one of the girls that liked to hit when someone deserved it, partly because I feel the second one just serves to perpetuate bullying. It's textbook abuse. Victims of abuse and rape don't like going to the police either because of the sort of fear learned in those lessons.

...Of course, often times authority figures don't end up doing anything. That's fucked up in its own way.

Telling people not to try, telling them that they're a coward for trying doesn't help.

It's simply how things actually are.

My game, my rules.

These ideas are exactly the thing I have been fighting my entire life in social activism, in protests, in my personal life and in my career.

I kind of hate them.

Also feel like they kind of prove my point.

edited 28th May '15 4:10:25 PM by unnoun

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#17628: May 28th 2015 at 2:12:18 PM

What we have here is a classic case of-

HEY kids, wanna talk about music? I sure do! Discounting character themes, OPs, and EDs; what is your favorite song from anything Dragon Ball related? It can be from the original anime, from Z, from Kai, from the movies, from the games; whatever.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17629: May 28th 2015 at 2:13:53 PM

This.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#17631: May 28th 2015 at 2:20:58 PM

[up][up]Beat me to it.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17633: May 28th 2015 at 2:29:37 PM

[up][up] Well, I AM the fastest in the universe.

Except all those guys who have a higher battle power than me. And the guy that stops time.

But if you don't count everyone faster than me, I am by far the FASTEST in the universe.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Raven666 I'd totally hug you if that was something I did from Everywhere and Nowhere. I'm watching you. Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
I'd totally hug you if that was something I did
#17634: May 28th 2015 at 2:30:21 PM

Is it weird that every time i've watched Dragon Ball i've never actually heard the music? The only songs i've heard are like the Red Ribbon one. I tend to not hear Background music when watching things, which is why i'm glad Youtube exists.

What started out as a pleasant afternoon of drugs and surgery has not gone as planned.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17635: May 28th 2015 at 2:40:00 PM

So I've just come up with the most broken warrior in all of Dragon Ball history....

Just give somebody Guldo's time-freeze, and Spike the Devil man's Devilmite beam.

Instant pwnage.

...Come to think of it, combine Guldo's time freeze with damn near anything and you got a lot of dead people around.

The Kienzan would be another good combination.

Provided said subject can learn to hold their breath for a long time.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17636: May 28th 2015 at 2:42:54 PM

...I mean, most of my feelings about canon were formed as part of a lifelong devotion to a series where the creators started off not trying to create a canon, made stories that were often and sometimes deliberately contradictory, and then deliberately and openly said there wasn't a canon, said that it was impossible for the series to have a canon. And fans ended up trying to create a canon anyway.

Where at least one of the creators said "I'm just the writer, I have no more authority over the text than you!"

Give nerds freedom, and they end up building a cage.

I still don't like the term, but I'm normally more tolerant of series that do have canons. Where the authors have exercised their supposed authority.

...I normally like bucking authority, or at the very least questioning it, but. Eh.

But what really upsets me? What started this from my end? Is people who take that authority for granted. As a given. That all fiction works this way, and has to work that way. That it's just "the way things are."

As someone who dearly loves a franchise that's survived perfectly fine for over a half-century without a stinking canon, I find the presumptuousness of that somewhat irritating.

There. I've said my piece. That's both how I feel, and why I feel that way.

Canon can exist, even if I don't like it.

But it's not an inherent part of the way all stories work.

edited 28th May '15 2:46:53 PM by unnoun

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#17637: May 28th 2015 at 2:47:18 PM

What you're describing is Negative Continuity. Not everything has that. In fact, most works don't.

That is literally the last time I'll say anything in regards to this conversation.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17638: May 28th 2015 at 2:51:18 PM

What I'm talking about is past events contradicting present events but still influencing them thematically. Storytelling more like a traditional Shakespearean play than a film, where things represent things.

Where you can destroy the same city three times in the space of a year with no acknowledgment of that fact while still having the conceit of a serialized narrative where each episode goes into the next with cliffhangers in the middle.

Where a robot girl on what is definitely the planet Earth in the 1980s, albeit a comedic one, can meet a monkey boy from a world with dinosaurs and dragons.

edited 28th May '15 2:52:51 PM by unnoun

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#17639: May 28th 2015 at 2:55:33 PM

Wow, this thread got complex fast.

Honestly, I think the worst problem people can make when discussing Dragon Ball is to think that the ideas were all thought of from the start, and not that Toriyama just included new stuff from week to week when he felt like it.

There are points where he DOES have a clear plan, but a lot of times he doesn't. It's honestly amazing it ended up being coherent at all.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17640: May 28th 2015 at 3:02:18 PM

I think the worst thing to happen for a serialized narrative is to end. And when they do it's always kind of sad.

And I think it's a worse problem to misunderstand them, to make them something they're not. To examine the corpse for the flaws instead of to recognize that when they were alive they were, in fact, alive, constantly growing, moving and doing. Sometimes they improved, sometimes they got worse, but so long as they kept going they didn't have to stop. They always had a chance to be something else.

edited 28th May '15 3:09:09 PM by unnoun

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#17641: May 28th 2015 at 3:08:48 PM

Of course, any story has to come to an end at some point. Sure, you can try to prevent that (just look at comics universes like DC and Marvel), but there always comes a point where the story has to reach whatever point it's been moving toward, and stretching it out too long can carry the risk of losing direction. Even in extreme long runners, they tend to be moving towards some conclusion, and/or are made of multiple smaller stories that do the same.

edited 28th May '15 3:09:57 PM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17642: May 28th 2015 at 3:11:23 PM

Endings are always an option, as is returning to any old point and simply carrying on.

Eventually people start telling a story differently.

Say, did you ever hear the one about the Monkey King named Sun Wukong, the monk Xuanzang, and their Journey to the West?

edited 28th May '15 3:16:15 PM by unnoun

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#17643: May 28th 2015 at 3:15:31 PM

If ever there was a post on which to close out the thread, that was it.

I have a message from another time...
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17644: May 28th 2015 at 3:18:35 PM

It's a hell of a lot better than the one about Geeko in High School.

Which doesn't say much, I admit.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#17645: May 28th 2015 at 3:34:26 PM

I actually like quite a bit of Dragon Ball related music.

There are some that stand out, though.

Say what you will about GT, but this version of Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku is fucking fantastic.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#17646: May 28th 2015 at 3:46:37 PM

Thinking it over, I'm going to parrot what was already stated. As long as Goku fights a garuda this series will have justified its existence.

And why just stop with enemies strong enough for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta? A stealthy super powered bank robber for Krillen. An ancient carnivorous plant that went extinct by eating faster than their prey populations could recover revived by conversationalists thinking it was something else an Android 18 and lumberjack 17 have to deal with. A colony of giant insects from another region of space time that Mr. Popo accidentally disturbs when fixing the door of spirit and time that proceed to invade Earth, Piccolo using the multiform technique to pick off dozens of workers before rejoining to fight at full power against a lone solider who got through before Popo fixed the problem. An army of sea monsters planning an invasion of the surface in the depths of the Earth only to be killed by Majin Buu brought back by dragon balls and killed by a(different) Majin Buu. An Evil Diva who drains the power of her listeners to grow fifty feet tall and ends up fighting Yamcha after her song interferes with one of his baseball games. Tien and Choazu are attacked by a Mind Hive of ghosts possessing the shop of Tao's tailor seeking revenge on Hermit Crane and his students. Great Saiyaman and Great Sayaiman 2 are defeated by a scout who is exactly as strong as Super perfect Cell and saved by Goten and Trunks who fuse into Gotenks then super Super Saiyan 3 to defeat attack drones the scout called to destroy the Earth after it confirming it was where Majin Buu's cocoon had landed.

edited 28th May '15 3:54:22 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17647: May 28th 2015 at 3:50:28 PM

I'm always curious what archaeologists who dig up an old collection of dragon ball a few million years in the future would think.

It's my usual criteria. Not a bad thought experiment. Something to keep in mind while you live your life. When everything is buried, what will be left, and how will it be understood?

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#17648: May 28th 2015 at 3:53:00 PM

I was actually just recording a random vlog where I was talking about the 'Toriyama intended for it to end at Freeza' stuff. I was basically explaining that, as long as Goku is alive, the series can ALWAYS keep going, no matter how ridiculous it might seem.

Once Goku dies...it depends on whether there's a successor like him. If not, the series pretty much ends there. Because Goku DOES attract villains. That's why he decided to stay dead in the first place!

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#17649: May 28th 2015 at 3:54:53 PM

Even if Goku dies, he'll find a way to keep adventuring in the afterlife. He'll piss off some god or something.

Because that's what he does.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17650: May 28th 2015 at 3:56:13 PM

Pissing off gods is a worthwhile thing to do. They deserve it.


Total posts: 130,800
Top