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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#17576: May 28th 2015 at 1:36:07 AM

I just learned something crazy...

Goku's not the only person who went False SSJ!

I forgot all about this scene. The yellow aura, the spiky yet blondless hair... Trunks' pupils even disappear just like Goku's did!

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#17577: May 28th 2015 at 2:24:24 AM

Gohan also does it in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber when he first taps into the power of Super Saiyan 2.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17579: May 28th 2015 at 4:58:16 AM

That's not false Super Saiyan. That's base Goku with a gold aura.

So, is DBO/DBX more canon than the filler and movies, less, or the same?

There is no officially laid out canon. So, the only answer to your question I can give you is this: triangle.

In more detail.

For starters, I don't even know how you're defining canon yourself.

The closest we've got to a "canon" is "whatever's being used for the new stories". The video games will use whatever they can get a hold of, and the only new stories are a video game manga, two films and an upcoming series we know nothing about.

So, for the two films and Toriyama's comments about them... we can guess pretty easily. Both Tarble and Jaco have been included in some form, none of the Toei-exclusive elements have been touched upon... it's a pretty safe guess to say that Toriyama's recent works are part of the "canon" that he will be basing any new works off. But even that is a guess.

Online seems to be where Toriyama wants Dragonball to head towards, but I don't know if it's canon. Xenoverse is more like a fun series of What If? stories.

Why would you say that? Online is dead and never concluded its story. Further, nothing in the new material points to Online's set up.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17580: May 28th 2015 at 7:39:06 AM

I always thought it'd be cool to have a Dragon Ball fighting game with What If scenarios that divide them by character.

So you could have, like, Yamcha Scenario where Yamcha is the main character and bumbles his way through the series, or Frieza Scenario where Frieza defeats Super Saiyan Goku and reigns supreme until Super Saiyan Vegeta returns to challenge his throne or something, or Dodoria Scenario where Vegeta accepts Dodoria's offer to betray Frieza and they team up to take him down together, etc. etc.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#17581: May 28th 2015 at 9:13:37 AM

That's kind of what Supersonic Warriors did, though it largely sticks to "how would this character get through the various arcs in the anime?" They even manage to have a "how it happened in the anime" scenario in addition to a Goku scenario.

I should get myself a copy of that. I never did do all the stories.

edited 28th May '15 9:15:46 AM by Enlong

I have a message from another time...
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17582: May 28th 2015 at 9:43:33 AM

Why would you say that? Online is dead and never concluded its story. Further, nothing in the new material points to Online's set up.

My mistake, I assumed.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17583: May 28th 2015 at 10:57:39 AM

I mean, didn't Online have a thing where Goku and Vegeta ended up punching each other to death?

I could sorta buy that after Revival of F.

And Gohan writing a book after getting Yamcha'd so badly.

I do think it's sorta a thing that these stories are in the wrong part of the timeline. Before Uub even.

Also I started frothing at the mouth after I read that thing about canon so imma go now before I do something none of you will live to regret.

edited 28th May '15 10:58:17 AM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17584: May 28th 2015 at 11:17:00 AM

I'm invincible.

And regret is for weaklings.tongue

But it's probably good you remembered all the little people.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#17585: May 28th 2015 at 11:49:02 AM

Hey, I remember all of you don't I.

Now… who is this Rob Uchiha guy? He sounds like quite the character.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17586: May 28th 2015 at 11:49:49 AM

When people talk about "canon", they're referring to what is generally considered the main continuity, which includes but is not limited to anything from the original story that is not explicitly stated to be an alternate continuity as well as supplemental materials from other sources that are validated as part of the main continuity by the original author, but excludes supplemental materials that contradict the original story, are explicitly stated by either the author of those materials or the original to not be part of the continuity, or simply have not received the same validation by the original author.

They say canon not because everyone expects most supplemental materials to be placed under the same level of scrutiny as the committee that created the Bible, but because it is a rather large mouthful to say, "Is this work part of what is generally considered the main continuity, which includes but is not limited to anything from the original story that is not explicitly stated to be an alternate continuity as well as supplemental materials from other sources that are validated as part of the main continuity by the original author, but excludes supplemental materials that contradict the original story, are explicitly stated by either the author of those materials or the original to not be part of the continuity, or simply have not received the same validation by the original author?"

It's easier to just go, "Hey, is this canon?" and as 95% of people understand exactly what is being asked when those words are combined in such a manner, I see little meaning in arguing this semantic choice. Dragon Ball has a main continuity; a "canon." Future Trunks's Timeline is part of it. Broly is not. Battle of Gods is. GT is not.

edited 28th May '15 11:52:23 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17587: May 28th 2015 at 11:52:56 AM

I think it's a vile concept. One that isn't worth discussing, much less having a word for.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#17588: May 28th 2015 at 11:56:47 AM

So you could have, like, Yamcha Scenario where Yamcha is the main character and bumbles his way through the series, or Frieza Scenario where Frieza defeats Super Saiyan Goku and reigns supreme until Super Saiyan Vegeta returns to challenge his throne or something, or Dodoria Scenario where Vegeta accepts Dodoria's offer to betray Frieza and they team up to take him down together, etc. etc.

BlazBlue used to do something like that, where each character had their own independent campaigns that varied.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17589: May 28th 2015 at 12:00:13 PM

I mean, I don't mind the meanings of canon that refer to a collection of works, like a literary canon, or better yet, the kind of music called a canon.

But the way it's used in fandom is gross.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#17590: May 28th 2015 at 12:05:04 PM

I know some original fighting games do it, but unless they intersect consistently, those have their own problems by virtue of what I've dubbed Mortal Kombat Continuity.

Early MK games, like most fighters, had different endings for different characters - but unlike most fighters, Mortal Kombat has always been plot-intensive. This didn't gel well with the Fighting Game style because everyone had to defeat the Bad Guy to receive their ending, even if they were on his side. This resulted in players having to wait until the next sequel to even find out what happened in this game, and then most of the endings - the primary method of storytelling, mind you - being non-canon while many of the remaining ones were canon only in the Broad Strokes sense; these parts happened but those didn't and the context wasn't necessarily what it was in the ending.

What makes Dragon Ball a good candidate for just going nuts with alternate continuities and mutually-exclusive storytelling and the like is that what actually happened has already been firmly established. There's no confusion about whether or not Yamcha actually could have defeated three Cell Jr's simultaneously, or whether or not Majin Buu actually did absorb Frieza.

edited 28th May '15 12:18:13 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#17591: May 28th 2015 at 12:36:00 PM

... I don't get the hate on the word canon.

I mean, it's really simple. What the author says is canon is canon and what the author says isn't isn't.

I don't get why you would hate on the concept. It's not like it does shit to you or your fanfic. Just because it's not canon doesn't mean you can't write a fic where Yamcha beats Whis with his hands tied behind his back.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17592: May 28th 2015 at 12:38:47 PM

I hate the authority and hierarchy involved.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17593: May 28th 2015 at 12:41:13 PM

Oh, that's all.

edited 28th May '15 12:41:23 PM by VeryMelon

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#17594: May 28th 2015 at 12:43:47 PM

... You hate the author being able to decide what is and what isn't true in the world they have crafted..?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17595: May 28th 2015 at 12:46:44 PM

I hate that they think they're the one that crafted it. All they did was put ink to paper.

Which is actually more special than you'd think. Not everyone can do that.

But stories are about meaning, and communication. It's a two-way street.

What the writer meant to write and what the reader actually read aren't always the same, and I don't think one should have precedence over the other.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17596: May 28th 2015 at 12:47:28 PM

[up][up]I don't get that mindset either.

edited 28th May '15 12:47:54 PM by VeryMelon

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#17597: May 28th 2015 at 12:51:53 PM

... Uh... what?

The author did craft it. They thought it up. They designed it. They brought it to life.

Of course, there are exceptions, and there are times when the author takes suggestions, ideas and inspiration from others.

But I don't get hating the author for believing they created something that they created.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#17598: May 28th 2015 at 12:54:30 PM

I don't think that's how storytelling works at all.

What the creator does is put something out there, and what people do with it after that point is up to them and them alone.

The author can't bring any story to life for anybody but themselves. It's by the act of reading a story when that happens.

The author is also a reader. Readers are also authors in their own right. That's what fandom can be. That's what we're doing now. Our discussion of a work, our metatext is intricately linked with the text.

edited 28th May '15 12:56:31 PM by unnoun

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17599: May 28th 2015 at 12:57:41 PM

Okay but what's with all the creepy bitterness whenever someone brings up canon?

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#17600: May 28th 2015 at 12:58:22 PM

[up][up]I think I get where you're going with this. What matters if not what the author intends to convey, but what the readers instead interpret from the work for themselves. Is that basically it, or am I off base here?

edited 28th May '15 12:58:40 PM by kkhohoho


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