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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#17351: May 22nd 2015 at 11:10:36 PM

[up][up] True, but its still ultimately Goku that the plot tends fall on. Everyone gets a moment sure, but its kinda mitigated when they have to suffer The Worf Effect to make the villain look strong enough for only Goku to take down.

[up]I miss the days when Gohan was the undisputed strongest...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#17352: May 23rd 2015 at 12:35:40 AM

[up]But the same thing happens in FMA.

I'm totes fine with this being the Goku-Vegeta show if it means Vegeta gets to actually beat an arc villai-HAHAHAHAHA GOKU TIME

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#17353: May 23rd 2015 at 1:54:47 AM

I find it funny that it's totally possible to make a fighting game that just stars Goku and has a roster of over 20:

  • Kid Goku (Penetrate)
  • Oozaru Kid Goku (Large Rock Throw)
  • Teen Goku (Diving Headbutt)
  • Goku (Super Spirit Bomb)
  • Kaioken Goku (Kaioken Attack)
  • KKx3 Goku (Kaioken Kamehameha)
  • KKx20 Goku (x20 Kaioken Kamehameha)
  • KKx100 Goku (Kaioken Penetrate)
  • False SSJ Goku (Saiyan Rage)
  • SSJ Goku (Angry Kamehameha)
  • Ascended SSJ Goku (Instant Transmission Kamehameha)
  • Ultra SSJ Goku (Super Explosive Wave)
  • Super Kaioken Goku (Super Kaioken Attack)
  • SSJ2 Goku (Super Kamehameha)
  • SSJ3 Goku (Dragon Fist)
  • SSJG Goku (Rebirth Kamehameha)
  • SSJGSS Goku (God Kamehameha)
  • GT Goku (Universal Spirit Bomb)
  • SSJ GT Goku (Super Kamehameha)
  • SSJ2 GT Goku (Super Explosive Wave)
  • SSJ3 GT Goku (Dragon Fist)
  • SSJO GT Goku (Golden Oozaru Beam)
  • SSJ4 GT Goku (Super Dragon Fist)

See, a roster of 23 characters that are all Goku. tongue

edited 23rd May '15 1:55:20 AM by Rinsankajugin

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#17354: May 23rd 2015 at 6:45:59 AM

I wonder if this thread will ever go ten pages without people whining about humans getting shafted and Goku hogging all the focus.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17355: May 23rd 2015 at 6:49:58 AM

It's 1 or 2 guys at least, so the conversations don't drag out.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#17356: May 23rd 2015 at 7:37:51 AM

And if you're a fan of characters that aren't Goku, its a kind of a legitimate complaint :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17357: May 23rd 2015 at 9:36:01 AM

There are plenty of ways for a villain who's not as strong as Goku or Vegeta to still put them out of the way:

Consider:

  • Buu's absorbing abilities

  • Captain Ginyu's body change

  • Guldo's Telekinesis

  • Commander Blue's Telekinesis

  • Baby's ability to take over other's bodies

  • The Kai's sealing away Bojack's gang

Now the last two are examples from things people don't much care about, but that doesn't mean they should be disregarded.

I know it's not exactly something that's well regarded since it's a fan work, but Dragonball Multiverse has a good example of a physically weaker character defeating a much stronger opponent using a technique that's hard to get around.

I just wish I could find the chapter where it happens so I could post it.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#17358: May 23rd 2015 at 9:40:53 AM

Are you talking about XXI versus Universe 18 Vegito?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17359: May 23rd 2015 at 9:43:14 AM

I'm not really fond of using non-interactive abilities to "fix" that though. That becomes something even harder to get around than strength differences, and it feels incredibly cheap.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17360: May 23rd 2015 at 9:54:04 AM

Are you talking about XXI versus Universe 18 Vegito?

Yes indeed. Even considering that Vegito broke out in seconds (by his count) it was still an effective way to take him out of the picture.

[up]

I can see your point. I mean, if some dude comes along and seals Goku and Vegeta in an patented Goku and Vegeta can't escape ball, you then have to wonder why he didn't just do that to everyone, and it's clear that this dude is around purely to keep them out of the fight, with no other reason to exist beyond that.

That doesn't have to be the case, but it can feel that way, and any explanation for why he doesn't help in the fight will only enforce that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17361: May 23rd 2015 at 9:55:28 AM

Not just that, it goes so far as to make it look like there is no way for the enemy to lose as long as they use that power.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#17362: May 23rd 2015 at 10:23:10 AM

This is what happens you centralize a series so much around one to two characters to detriment of everyone else. Any attempt to write Goku & Vegeta out is gonna look pretty damn blatant.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#17363: May 23rd 2015 at 10:40:09 AM

I personally loved Android 19 & 20's energy-absorption trick to counter characters of higher power level. If they had been weaker in base, having to rely on more frequent absorptions to maintain a high power level (and Toriyama liked them more), that could have been a way to give the side-characters some spotlight without a single-use plot device to sideline the Saiyans.

edited 23rd May '15 10:41:18 AM by DoctorDiabolical

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17364: May 23rd 2015 at 10:48:33 AM

Or maybe if Toriyama had given 17 and 18 the same ability instead of the infinite energy generators.

Or maybe some way to combine them.

Then again, that takes us back to the numerous retcons that plague the Android / Cell sagas, and we don't want to get into that.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#17365: May 23rd 2015 at 11:00:56 AM

I still hold that Limit Break Kamehameha is a better name than Rebirth Kamehameha.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#17366: May 23rd 2015 at 11:24:37 AM

But that's only because Rebirth Kamehameha is a stupid name to begin with.

...

Why even change its name at all in the first place, I wonder. It's still just a Kamehameha.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#17367: May 23rd 2015 at 11:38:06 AM

[up][up][up][up] But there'd be no reason that the weaker characters would fair better against them.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#17368: May 23rd 2015 at 11:50:24 AM

Rinne Kamehameha does sound silly.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#17369: May 23rd 2015 at 11:53:47 AM

[up][up]

No, it could still work.

The villains have an ability that lets them take out Goku and Vegeta without actually being stronger than them. But said Villains aren't much stronger than the other characters, topping out at around Picollo's (or whoever the strongest person is after Goku and Vegeta, which should be Gohan, but Gohan's all over the fucking place), with minions maybe around the level of Krillin or 18 something.

Maybe if they do have someone stronger, that guy has to maintain whatever spell they used to take out Goku and Vegeta so that they can't rejoin the fight.

It still reeks of This Looks Like a Job for Aquaman, and I totally acknowledge that, but it can be done.

Now, whether it should be done is the question. I have a good idea of what your answer would be Saiga, though I could be wrong. And if I am I'll toss you off a cliff and lie I'LL ADMIT IT.

edited 23rd May '15 11:53:59 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#17370: May 23rd 2015 at 12:07:34 PM

The move is called Genkai-Toppa Kamehameha though; how do you get Rebirth from that, especially since "Genkai Toppa" has been translated as "Limit Break" before?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#17372: May 23rd 2015 at 1:44:55 PM

Have the villains release a toxin into the air that only Saiyans are affected by. Boom. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks are now out of the fight.

Hell, it'd be easy to justify by having a mad scientist whose planet was purged by Saiyans in the past.

As for justifying baddies that are more powerful than Freeza... Well, androids are a thing on Earth. Maybe someone was building one to take out Freeza.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#17373: May 23rd 2015 at 2:08:36 PM

Sounds almost like the Hatchiyack movie.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#17374: May 23rd 2015 at 2:15:05 PM

Nah, that one didn't actually take out the Saiyans.

When it comes down to it, in order to make everyone else relevant, you need to remove the Saiyans from the equation entirely.

If you want, you can make it so that Half Saiyans are merely weakened drastically so you can keep Gohan and Gotenks around. It's bullshit pseudoscience anyway.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#17375: May 23rd 2015 at 2:21:16 PM

Ydratian Supervirus.

Featuring Krillin doing a "Fantastic Voyage" Plot to save them.


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