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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#16876: May 16th 2015 at 8:45:00 PM

That's true (about the ignored advice), but it's not that he brought the franchise out of retirement due to it. For starters, it wasn't him that did it, it was Toei/Shueisha. Battle of Gods was a concept before he was brought in.

However, Toriyama did say he tried to make Battle of Gods enjoyable to make up for Evolution.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#16877: May 16th 2015 at 8:46:02 PM

...

Those fuckers! As if I needed another reason to that that movie!

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#16878: May 16th 2015 at 8:47:08 PM

[up][up][up][up]Did you just have sex with Bulma?

Fuck I cannot count worth a shit.

[up]Here's one reason to like them:

If they pissed off Toriyama and that caused Toriyama to decide to be involved again... that's a good thing.

And while it's true that Battle of Gods wasn't really to the level of the original series... shit, it was enjoyable. I mean, you're not a fan of Dragonball if you can't enjoy it despite its flaws.

edited 16th May '15 8:48:39 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#16879: May 16th 2015 at 8:50:38 PM

[up]

We all wouldn't be here if we didn't enjoy the series despite it's flaws.

You could say that of a lot of series.

.....

Except Fairy Tail and Naruto.

Fuck both of those series.

edited 16th May '15 8:50:49 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#16880: May 16th 2015 at 8:53:52 PM

The kienzan is a pretty good technique if you can land a hit with it. Most of the instances in which the kienzan has failed have been cases where the character firing it was already sorely outclassed by the person he was using it against; both Krillin in nearly every instance he threw it and Full Power Frieza already battered and with ki draining fast against Super Saiyan Goku demonstrated this. "Could instant-kill your adversary if they weren't so fast compared to you that they can effortlessly dodge it" sounds bad on paper, but it's still an improvement over "Could never harm them even if they stood perfectly still and let it hit them," which is where most other techniques are.

Or in short, the problem isn't the kienzan. It's the person using the kienzan. Krillin may have to get lucky to actually kill someone hundreds of thousands of battle power above him, but he's still got better odds than with his Kamehameha.

As for Hellzone Grenade, the move does not require a person to remain still. Android 17 was dodging it when Piccolo first started firing it. The opponent's effort to avoid the attack is taken into account, and is the reason the move creates a minefield of ki shots. It was ineffective against Android 17 because he has a barrier powered by his Infinite Energy Generator, an ability no Android had ever demonstrated prior to that moment. A beam wouldn't have fared any better against 17's barrier.

Lastly, beams are not the end-all be-all of Dragon Ball attacks. They can be dodged, smacked aside, and countered just as much as any other attack. Tien can deflect the Kamehameha, Nappa bitchslapped Rage Gohan's Masenko, Piccolo had to fire the Makankosappo twice to land a successful hit, Frieza just plain tanked the x20 Kamehameha, etc.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#16881: May 16th 2015 at 8:53:58 PM

[up][up][up] Whoa, whoa. I hope you meant the entire series and not just Battle of Gods. I don't need to like BoG at all to enjoy the other parts of the series.

[up] There really wasn't that big of a gap between Goku and Freeza. Freeza was able to nail him with other attacks. So yes, the Kienzan does have a pretty big flaw. Or Goku wouldn't have said it's "pathetic".

Also, Android 17 moving at all was just padding. He stood perfectly still in the manga. It's also implied Piccolo's Light Grenade could have killed 17, so saying a beam wouldn't work is unfounded.

I'm not saying they're the be-all end-all. Just that they're consistently the more reliable option. That doesn't mean they'll always work, but they just work more often than the other attacks.

edited 16th May '15 8:58:20 PM by Saiga

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#16882: May 16th 2015 at 8:54:08 PM

I don't expect DB to be "great art" or anything, never have.

Actually, that would be really freaking weird.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#16883: May 16th 2015 at 9:00:29 PM

There really wasn't that big of a gap between Goku and Freeza. Freeza was able to nail him with other attacks. So yes, the Kienzan does have a pretty big flaw. Or Goku wouldn't have said it's "pathetic".

Wasn't he speaking specifically about Frieza's attack?

And not even the attack but the fact that frieza was trying to attack when it was clear he'd already fucking lost?

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#16884: May 16th 2015 at 9:01:59 PM

He was just talking about Freeza's Kienzan, there. Being annoyed that Freeza was still trying was mentioned separately.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#16885: May 16th 2015 at 9:07:53 PM

Yeah. The Kienzan is still a legitimate attack.

The problem is that it's used by a guy too weak to take full advantage of it, even though he invented it to get around enemies pure power.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#16886: May 16th 2015 at 9:09:32 PM

Wasn't there a thing where Goku was letting Frieza hit him and Frieza was running out of energy and getting mad during the fight while Goku coldly and mercilessly wrecked Frieza's shit?

I seem to remember the manga making it seem like Frieza's attacks just weren't doing much to Goku.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#16887: May 16th 2015 at 9:11:35 PM

That was at the start where Freeza smacked Goku a few times, then said he wasn't even going all out. Then Goku revealed he wasn't hurt, and he's glad Freeza isn't that weak.

While Freeza was noticeably at a disadvantage, he still managed to get some hits in and injure Goku.

[up][up] Goku has a proven track record with evaluating techniques. If he says it's pathetic, and it's not shown being effective at all, I'd side with him. And Freeza's technique is Kuririn's, but better. It fixes one of the major problems with the Kienzan and still sucks.

edited 16th May '15 9:13:19 PM by Saiga

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#16888: May 16th 2015 at 9:12:05 PM

Yeah, a move that can pierce defenses instead of wholesale bathing the enemy in a huge wave could work if the speed and control can be improved.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#16889: May 16th 2015 at 9:15:00 PM

There really wasn't that big of a gap between Goku and Freeza. Freeza was able to nail him with other attacks. So yes, the Kienzan does have a pretty big flaw. Or Goku wouldn't have said it's "pathetic".

Frieza was already bleeding power like a sieve. By the time he used the kienzan, Goku had already tried to quit the fight because there was no possible way for Frieza to win. So yes, there was that big a gap between Goku and Frieza; Goku testified to it himself.

Also, Android 17 moving at all was just padding. He stood perfectly still in the manga. It's also implied Piccolo's Light Grenade could have killed 17, so saying a beam wouldn't work is unfounded.

Light Grenade isn't a beam. It's a bomb. That's why it's called Light Grenade. It's a mass of compressed ki that expands on impact with the target.

I'm not saying they're the be-all end-all. Just that they're consistently the more reliable option. That doesn't mean they'll always work, but they just work more often than the other attacks.

But they don't. They fail a lot. Their main advantage is that they're simple; there's a lot of room for creative application, like curving beams and beam spams and propelling one's self on the beam and beams that split into other beams and the like. Goku's even used stationary Kamehamehas to get out of a precarious situation. They're simple and have a lot of potential for different things to be done with them, so they get used a lot more than other attacks.

edited 16th May '15 9:16:47 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#16890: May 16th 2015 at 9:15:09 PM

I see it as Crippling Overspecialisation. The cutting is great, but it's focused on that it falls apart in other areas.

It is the technique version of Super Saiyan Grade 3.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#16891: May 16th 2015 at 9:17:24 PM

Well then, you might as well toss Krillin in the Yamcha bin, cause that was all he had.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#16892: May 16th 2015 at 9:17:38 PM

What area does it fall apart on? What attack should Krillin have used to kill Second Form Frieza in a single hit? Which move would be better suited to pull off that feat?

edited 16th May '15 9:18:10 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#16893: May 16th 2015 at 9:18:00 PM

Which other areas? speed and control? I'd say yes, definitely focus on improving those. Upgrade your moves.

And break out the big cover-you-in-energy moves for people who need to be completely vaporized to kill.

edited 16th May '15 9:18:38 PM by Enlong

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#16894: May 16th 2015 at 9:19:15 PM

[up][up]Well, cut his tail which is more damage than anyone else did, but your point still stands.

But never mind that, Saiga says it's useless and the pope is always right, right?

I warned all of you that giving him so much power would bite us all, but none of you listened.

NOW LOOK WHAT'S HAPPENED!!!

edited 16th May '15 9:19:32 PM by HandsomeRob

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#16895: May 16th 2015 at 9:19:54 PM

Can't give Saiga power unless you agree with him.

I have a message from another time...
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#16896: May 16th 2015 at 9:20:08 PM

[up] x 7 nah, that's pure speculation. Goku had just said his power was falling. Not that it was losing that quickly or that there was already a large gap. Now you're just exaggerating based on nothing.

There's no meaningful distinction between energy spheres and beams.

They fail a lot, but they also succeed a lot. Other techniques do the first and not the second.

[up] x 4 Terrible example. Just because Kuririn couldn't do anything else doesn't make the Kienzan a good technique, because that still couldn't beat Freeza either.

It's bad because it's so hard to hit someone. People have dodged it from behind, without being able to sense ki. What hope does that kind of technique have?

[up] x 3 Easier said than done. Can say the same thing for Grade 3, and yet it was better to just abandon it completely.

edited 16th May '15 9:22:29 PM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#16897: May 16th 2015 at 9:20:21 PM

If god existed it would be necessary to abolish him.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#16898: May 16th 2015 at 9:23:55 PM

[up][up]

I must disagree and say the Kienzan is awesome and the Pope is wrong.

May god have mercy on my soul.

And then play a little basketball with me. I bet I could take him to school.

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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#16899: May 16th 2015 at 9:24:33 PM

And SS 1 was unwieldy and tricky to control to start with. Goku got it working by training it.

Meh. Analogies all over the place. Can say a lot of things depending on where you start with.

edited 16th May '15 9:24:54 PM by Enlong

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#16900: May 16th 2015 at 9:25:12 PM

Super Saiyan 1 was flawed but still the best they had. It was good and became great.


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