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Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14926: Apr 16th 2015 at 5:10:13 AM

Giru?

Not Percel? I call BS.

I have a message from another time...
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#14927: Apr 16th 2015 at 5:33:18 AM

Alright guys, I'm finally at that point in Gohan and Videl's training that you warned me about. Having to play PQ 47 in order to get the "I..I'm okay!" Z-Soul. Wish me luck in getting it fast.

LLSmoothJ (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#14928: Apr 16th 2015 at 5:35:46 AM

[up][up][up] The data could be to finally make it so we can choose colors for the iconic outfits or add new costumes for existing characters (IE Tien's Cell/Buu saga outfit, Gohan's HoT hairstyle). But most likely it's for the possible new Resurrection F outfits.

edited 16th Apr '15 5:49:58 AM by LLSmoothJ

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#14929: Apr 16th 2015 at 5:47:46 AM

Outfits for the new movie are a good possibility.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#14930: Apr 16th 2015 at 7:18:41 AM

Or Vegeta, for how certain he was, was wrong, or was just planning to leave a big enough dent in the earth that the atmosphere would end up unlivable.

Goku corroborates Vegeta's assessment of the damage his attack could do when he pushes himself to Kaioken x4, wrecking his body in the process, to ensure that the beam never connects to the planet. For all his failings, Goku is a fantastic judge of relative powers; if Goku thinks the Galick Gun would have annihilated the Earth, that's good enough for me.

No, I'm pretty sure that attack could destroy the Earth. It's not like destroying a planet is an incredible feat in DBZ. And Vegeta has undoubtedly destroyed planets before even discounting filler.

Not necessarily. Destroying a planet is bad for business. Vegeta's a planet broker, part of Frieza's Intergalactic Planet Trade; his business is in scouring it of life and then selling it. There's no value in the annihilation of a world.

That wasn't a consideration on Earth because Vegeta had already gone off-script by even coming here in the first place.

Uhm, no. Roshi's actual battle power is 139, which is pretty close to what he calculated in the video. Then using the mass of the moon, the person extrapolated (assuming Roshi's power level is the bare minimum needed to destroy our moon) and then applied that to Earth. He was not saying Vegeta's power level is 10,000; he was saying 10,000 is what's required to blow up an Earth-sized planet. Not that hard to follow.

Any calculation predicated on Kame-sennin's battle power of 139 is flawed at its basic premise: Kame-sennin was at 139 when Bulma measured him with the Scouter she took off Raditz's corpse, but Kame-sennin diligently trained himself in preparation for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai years before that.

He blew up the moon during the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, which means his battle power was an unknown amount lower than 139 when he did it. On top of that, it was during his match against Goku; he wasn't running on fumes like Vegeta against Oozaru Gohan, but he was far from 100% at the time.

Tao Pai Pai outpowered everyone in the Red Ribbon Army by a margin so huge that Commander Red spent a veritable fortune on him.

Half a fortune; he was celebrating 20 Years of Assassination with a 50% off sale, but yep. Killed General Blue with his tongue. His tongue. That is how powerful Tao Pai Pai is in comparison to the Red Ribbon Army.

edited 16th Apr '15 7:19:55 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cag Since: Sep, 2010
#14931: Apr 16th 2015 at 7:45:04 AM

[up]

That logic is pretty flawed too. Kame-sennin's battle power was measured when he was at rest, shortly after Bulma woke him up, not when he is buffed up and concentrating his power like he was when he blew up the Moon. You can just as easily argue that his battle power was higher when he did that.

But in the end, the real problem with these calculations is that they are assuming that there is logic beyond "x is stronger than y" in battle powers to begin with.

Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14932: Apr 16th 2015 at 8:11:03 AM

Yeah. Assuming scouter readings are reliable when measuring someone at rest and not using any KI is the exact mistake that led to tragedy for guys like Raditz or the Fruit Brigade time and time again.

I have a message from another time...
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#14933: Apr 16th 2015 at 8:12:30 AM

They typically are. Just being at rest doesn't hide battle power; ki-masking is a specific skill.

It takes effort to show up weaker on the Scouter.

The reason the readings are unreliable is because our protagonists have many options for manipulating their battle power; they can conceal it, they have certain attacks that are more powerful than themselves, Gohan can pull outrageous levels out of his ass in short bursts, and Goku can multiply his.

EDIT: It is true, however, that Kame-sennin wasn't invoking his powered-up super-form when he was scanned - which does appear to increase his battle power like any other transformation - but that has nothing to do with being at rest.

edited 16th Apr '15 8:17:19 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14934: Apr 16th 2015 at 8:17:44 AM

The scouters showed spiking readings from something as basic as charging up for a big ki blast.

I have a message from another time...
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#14935: Apr 16th 2015 at 8:19:36 AM

That's because they moved from reading the person to reading the attack, and both the Makankosappo and the Kamehameha are more powerful than the person firing them.

The readings on the user's battle power returns to where it was once the move is launched.

EDIT: The reactions of Frieza's crew are particularly telling. They scan people at the start of the fight and assume that whatever they see is absolute. The idea that a person's battle power may change in the middle of the fight is nearly unheard of; Captain Ginyu recognized that Goku was ki-masking, but outside of him, reactions of "Pfft, his power is so low OMIGOD IT'S NOT WTF" are commonplace during the Saiyan and Namek arcs.

This would not be so if powers normally fluctuated based on how engaged the fighter is.

edited 16th Apr '15 8:24:44 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14936: Apr 16th 2015 at 8:26:52 AM

Was the bit where Raditz picked up slight power increases as Goku and Piccolo removed their training weights in the manga?

I have a message from another time...
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#14937: Apr 16th 2015 at 8:28:20 AM

Yes. The removal of the weights made them stronger and faster, which increases their battle power.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14938: Apr 16th 2015 at 8:34:09 AM

Aha yes. I thought so.

I have a message from another time...
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#14939: Apr 16th 2015 at 8:56:41 AM

So, in conclusion,

  • Kame-sennin was weaker in Base when he blew up the moon than the 139 on the Scouter.
  • Kame-sennin was using a Super Form that he wasn't using when he was read by the Scouter.
  • Kame-sennin was using a special attack that had an established precedent of being more powerful than the person firing it when he blew up the moon.

Erego, Kame-sennin's reading of 139 is more or less irrelevant to determining how powerful one needs to be to blow up the moon, let alone the Earth.

edited 16th Apr '15 8:57:00 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14940: Apr 16th 2015 at 9:20:57 AM

That's a super form? I thought it was just him gathering all his strength.

I have a message from another time...
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#14941: Apr 16th 2015 at 10:02:28 AM

Of course it is. The games call it his "Max Power" form, and there could be precedent that other people could use it too if they trained enough.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#14942: Apr 16th 2015 at 10:08:48 AM

Then again, the games also call Potential Unlocked a transformation.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#14943: Apr 16th 2015 at 10:14:40 AM

And made Fuse With Kami a reverseable transformation.

I have a message from another time...
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#14944: Apr 16th 2015 at 10:15:44 AM

Any calculation predicated on Kame-sennin's battle power of 139 is flawed at its basic premise: Kame-sennin was at 139 when Bulma measured him with the Scouter she took off Raditz's corpse, but Kame-sennin diligently trained himself in preparation for the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai years before that.

I'm using the Daizenshuu, so I know where it got the number from. Yes, it is his battle power after he trained for the 22nd WMAT, however, that doesn't change much about the video so I saw no reason to mention it.

We know that even after he was tired as shit from his fight with Goku, he still reasoned blowing up the moon would be more feasible than fighting Ape Goku. That means it requires a power level of less than 139, but that doesn't lend itself well to power calculations, so it's better to just use the one power level we have for him.

One could also use Tsuru-Sen'nin's power level of 120 as some kind of marker for Roshi, since they're "rivals". What all this means is Roshi's power level during the fight with Goku is anywhere from 120-139. Also why I keep using the word "around" whenever I mention a power level required to destroy Earth.

tl;dr: Just assume the upper limit.

edited 16th Apr '15 10:17:03 AM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#14945: Apr 16th 2015 at 10:50:30 AM

I got the "I...I'm okay!" Z Soul.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#14946: Apr 16th 2015 at 11:21:59 AM

[up][up][up]Well, if Cell can barf up 18...

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#14947: Apr 16th 2015 at 11:45:39 AM

I now have over 10,000,000 zenni. Man, if I get the DLC I'll be glad to have something to spend this on.

EDIT:Superhero training done. I'm done with all the non-DLC masters.

edited 16th Apr '15 12:05:03 PM by VeryMelon

Raven666 I'd totally hug you if that was something I did from Everywhere and Nowhere. I'm watching you. Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
I'd totally hug you if that was something I did
#14948: Apr 16th 2015 at 12:35:14 PM

I still want to know what the Serious Bomb description means. Is like say half the move in game or does it mean that it's a move Mira - and by extension the player - has yet to fully create which is why it's considered incomplete. Or is it just a misleading description that I should give no further thought to?

edited 16th Apr '15 12:37:12 PM by Raven666

What started out as a pleasant afternoon of drugs and surgery has not gone as planned.
TheAirman Brightness from The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Historians will say we were good friends.
Brightness
#14949: Apr 16th 2015 at 12:39:08 PM

You killed Mira before he perfected it, that's all.

edited 16th Apr '15 12:39:30 PM by TheAirman

PSN ID: FateSeraph | Switch friendcode: SW-0145-8835-0610 Congratulations! She/They
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#14950: Apr 16th 2015 at 12:41:13 PM

And he's probably back and improved in the next one.

edited 16th Apr '15 12:41:22 PM by LordofLore


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