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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#13226: Mar 31st 2015 at 1:55:41 PM

Thing is, you say those things as if they are because they are women.

When... well, everyone becomes a damsell in distress when the big bad shows up, since there's usually all of one guy who can take on the Big Bad.

Not typically, no.

Like 17, as you pointed out. He was never a Damsel in Distress. He was having an awesome fight scene with Piccolo, and then Cell showed up and absorbed him. There was never a time when he was running around with other characters desperately striving to protect him and shield him from harm; he lived a fighter until he died a fighter and was never anything but - until he retired to be a park ranger.

Most of the time, when the bad guy shows up, the characters who can't beat him still do things. Tien didn't have a snowball's chance in Hell of defeating Piccolo but he still managed to help Goku win. Yamcha, Tien, Chiaotzu, and Piccolo died fighting the hopeless battle with the Saiyans. Gohan and Krillin stuck around to win the day even after Vegeta had defeated Goku. Even Nail and Dende not only participated in the battle against Frieza despite being hilariously outclassed, but had valuable contributions to make to the fight.

17 was absorbed as a Sacrificial Lion in the middle of a fight scene he was having with another character, while 18 was absorbed as a Sacrificial Lamb after 16, Trunks, and Krillin had all failed to keep her safe from harm.

18 might have been a 'damsell in distress' running from Cell... but it's not like 17, her male brother, would have been any different if it'd been 18 who'd been absorbed first.

Doesn't matter if he would or not, because she wasn't absorbed first. Between the two Androids, a decision was made that the male Android would go down fighting and the female Android would go down cowering behind the men who failed to protect her.

Which worked out well for Cell; Krillin's boner wouldn't have stayed his hand against Android 17.

edited 31st Mar '15 1:59:08 PM by TobiasDrake

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#13227: Mar 31st 2015 at 1:59:00 PM

I'd like to point out that you used both of those tropes incorrectly.

I'd also like to point out this fic I found in the Fan Fic Recs page. Why? Read the synopsis:

Bulma, wanting to understand Vegeta better, uses a teleportation pod to make her a Saiyan, trains with 18 and uses a time machine to travel to Planet Vegeta and proceeds to get stuck there. Forced to work with Frieza (Not wanting to change what comes later) and watch over Vegeta as a child, Bulma gets far more than what she wished for.

The fuck?

Want even more? Read this spoiler:

She fights Vegeta (who doesn't recognize her) and goes Super Saiyan.

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Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#13228: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:05:56 PM

IANCE: What do women contribute to the story in DB? Bulma spends the vast majority of Namek useless at best, an active impediment at worst. Chichi is a walking stereotype who is awful to almost everyone around her. There is no woman among the Z-fighters at first and 18 soon receives a flat out demotion to the movie where she is basically told to stay at home and protect her daughter as opposed to her weaker husband doing that.

We have literally seen someone say Bulma's great contribution was being Trunks' mother. When listing a female character's accomplishments, if one of the greatest of them is "she gives birth to X" there is a problem.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#13229: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:07:55 PM

[up][up]Maybe it's well-executed.

I dunno.

I mean. The synopsis for this series is kinda weird.

It's basically a Journey To The West fanfiction where everyone's ooc.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:08:05 PM by unnoun

Raven666 I'd totally hug you if that was something I did from Everywhere and Nowhere. I'm watching you. Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#13230: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:07:59 PM

[up][up][up] I second that 'The fuck?'

Does anyone else think that in Xenoverse Saiyans should have gotten some Customizable battle armor? Like one with the under shirt, one without, and one without the...shoulder parts. I forget what those are called. It just annoys me that Saiyans and humans are pretty much the same save for different racial traits and some exclusive moves.

Tails should also have been an option at creation.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:21:01 PM by Raven666

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#13231: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:08:44 PM

Answer me one question.

How long do you think people would survive without Bulma?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#13232: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:09:54 PM

...Don't see why that'd be a problem.

I just..wanted to address this as a reader of Fairy Tail. The issue is most of the things that surround Fairy Tail, shit goes unexplained. Characters get power ups, beat opponents they were just losing to with almost no explanation why. That example is just one of many and it makes reading the series a pain in the ass.

Now granted, it really has nothing to do with her being a woman as its a general problem with the manga as a whole and aside from excessive overuse of fanservice, treats its women comparatively well.

So yea...spoilers, movie's looking kind of "meh" honestly.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#13233: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:11:45 PM

Explanations are overrated.

I mean, this series is nothing but explanations at times.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#13234: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:12:00 PM

And then there's the fact that in Battle of Gods Videl got to help...by being pregnant with Gohan's child.

18 got to fight in Bio-Broly. (And everyone hates that movie). It's a shame she didn't do more. Heck, her character wasn't even expanded much in the Buu Saga except that we found out she was a gold digger.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#13235: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:12:14 PM

Without Bulma Piccolo would've been unsealed some day and killed everyone since no one is strong enough to face him.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#13236: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:15:01 PM

[up][up][up]No...I like knowing why things happen, even if they don't make sense. I feel kind of insulted when I'm told just take things at face value.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#13237: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:19:12 PM

I mean, nobody knows exactly why Quantum physics work the way they do, but they do. They've been tested over and over and over.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:19:37 PM by unnoun

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#13238: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:19:40 PM

Answer me one question. How long do you think people would survive without Bulma?

If she hadn't found Goku? Not long. I'm sorry, though: 'facilitate the guy's journey' isn't great feminist writing. Almost everything Bulma does is provide a pathway for the guys to actually do the heavy lifting. Coupled with her...less than stellar personality

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#13239: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:21:50 PM

And, of course, there's the fact that every female character is a Tsundere in some way, taken to its literal extreme in Lunch. But I think that's just because Toriyama didn't know how to write different types of female characters. (Which in itself is ridiculous).

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#13240: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:24:38 PM

I have to admit that I'm more than a bit disappointed that this series hasn't become that much more inclusive since it started the 80s.

18 probably should fight more than Krillin does.

More than Roshi does.

...More than Goten and Trunks do when they aren't fused.

[up] That, yeah. Big time.

edited 31st Mar '15 2:24:59 PM by unnoun

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#13241: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:42:59 PM

I mean its a series from the 80's, even other well known series from back then didn't really treat females equally as men. Its just more noticeable now considering the recent revival of the series.

In an ideal world, all females would contribute something beside being baby makers or having minor roles.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#13242: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:44:46 PM

...So, since the Super Saiyan 3 skill is in Xenoverse, will it be made available to custom characters at any point?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#13243: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:44:47 PM

Does anyone else here think Goku becoming a God explains the power of his base form in Dragon Ball GT?

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#13244: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:48:38 PM

well GT is an alternate timeline apparently soo...

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#13245: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:52:16 PM

That might be the case, but I just read on this site that if you put GT-era Goku against Beerus, Gt Goku will mention how long it's bee since he met Beerus.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#13246: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:52:30 PM

@Lightysnake

Your argument here is basically "Helping the main character isn't a feminist thing"... well, what do you want her to do? Because, you know, that's what the male side characters do, too.

Really, this is a bullshit argument.

So you're saying the series has a thing against women just because the main star is a man and not a woman.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
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I say things.
#13247: Mar 31st 2015 at 2:57:48 PM

I prefer how Dragonball handles its female characters than how shows like Nardo treats them. DB never introduced them as being super important or competent (and not just them, since that's how a lot of characters get treated in this show) and then having them floundering around and being nothing but disposable fodder.

Also, Bulma is a better, more interesting and more important character than everyone in the cast save the Saiyans and Piccolo. Maybe on par with Krillin.

Anyway, 18 was never introduced as some fightaholic like everyone else is. Even in her fight against Vegeta she treated it more like a chore than anything. She also came out of the encounter with Cell better off than 17 did, since she was being portrayed as level-headed in that situation while 17 was the cocky idiot that got himself absorbed.

I find it hard to believe that DB "is sexist" (I mean, that gets thrown around so much that it's lost almost all meaning at this point) when it treats EVERYONE that badly. 18's better off than most of the cast when you look at things as a whole.

That said, I'm really not feeling this movie from everything that's been revealed thus far. It feels really half-assed. The only thing keeping me even mildly interested in this is the fact that Torishima supposedly liked the script.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#13248: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:03:08 PM

We have literally seen someone say Bulma's great contribution was being Trunks' mother. When listing a female character's accomplishments, if one of the greatest of them is "she gives birth to X" there is a problem.

While I agree that Dragon Ball, like most anime, is tremendously sexist, that is a gross misinterpretation of what I said.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#13249: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:04:48 PM

I think the reason "sexist" gets thrown around a lot is that it still hits so many targets.

And, I mean.

There is a question about whether more representation matches better representation or not exactly.

I think, broadly, when you have more diverse representation of things it evens things out a lot because it combats stereotypes because there's not just one way to do things.

I mean. A lot of the female characters in this series have broadly similar personalities and roles.

I think that the fact that Naruto tried to involve its female cast more than DB is more to its credit than its detriment.

And I say that as someone who doesn't like Naruto very much as a series.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#13250: Mar 31st 2015 at 3:04:56 PM

Anyway, 18 was never introduced as some fightaholic like everyone else is. Even in her fight against Vegeta she treated it more like a chore than anything. She also came out of the encounter with Cell better off than 17 did, since she was being portrayed as level-headed in that situation while 17 was the cocky idiot that got himself absorbed.

Yeah. This is important. Hell, she spent her time running from Cell carrying 16 (who continually told her she didn't need to), thereby protecting someone else. In the anime at least, she actually went out taking swings at Cell, while 17 didn't even get that chance.

Now, I believe there is sexism in DBZ, and I believe 18 got shafted, but so did everyone else.

I do think that keeping her out of the fight with Frieza is a poor tactical decision....

Although Krillin might just not want her to die under any circumstances, even if she is stronger. I don't know. Japan and it's casual sexism can be really frustrating.

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