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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#13001: Mar 29th 2015 at 10:00:56 PM

I love how, even after all this time and all of those games, they're still officially referred to as "Frieza's race" or "Frieza's species" or something

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#13002: Mar 29th 2015 at 10:03:42 PM

Goku and Vegeta's behavior regarding the Androids falls perfectly within their characters. I mean, Goku let Frieza power up completely instead of just wrecking his shit and would later go on to no fight Kid Buu all out which almost cost them the entire universe. Saiyans, by nature, are Blood Knights. Except Gohan at the beginning and during the Cell Games. You know, that is really weird now that it's been pointed out. He had no problems fighting Frieza and his goons or Vegeta and Nappa or even the Androids.

It is consistent that Goku and Vegeta regularly behave in a fashion that exposes the Earth to further danger. It's still stupid, and it's more glaring when the plot can only exist because Goku and Vegeta insist on the worst possible course of action, rather than their poor judgment skills merely contributing to the threat. The only other time they're quite this reckless is when attempting to avert Majin Buu's revival, and there they have the excuse that as powerful as they are and as much as Kaioshin has been awed by their power, it's hard for them to accept that Buu could actually be a serious threat; here, they have been explicitly told that the Androids kill everyone, and still think it's a good idea to fight them. In the face of the apocalypse, their choice is to let it happen 'cause it sounds rad.

As for Future Trunks and everyone else, well, what could they have done to stop Vegeta? Vegeta was more powerful than they were and Future Trunks just came to give the warning then left before coming back to help fight. I also don't think he knew where Dr. Gero's lab was. Future Trunks also objected to Vegeta letting Cell power up but Vegeta just knocked him out, I do believe.

Future Trunks came to prevent the Androids from destroying the world. There's no reason he had to limit his activity to just delivering a message - and, in fact, he didn't, as evidenced by his joining the battle against the Androids. He has literally all the time in the world to find Dr. Gero's lab, because he has a Time Machine.

Instead, he just delivered his message, then went to the battleground. And then he arrived late to the battle. In a Time Machine.

As for the modular Super Saiyan, I recall them actually explaining how that worked and it seems believable to me. I mean, it's not like they came up with it on the spot. Vegeta, and then later Goku, came up with it during a year of intense training aimed specifically at trying to figure out if they can amplify their Super Saiyan form. After the Ascended Super Saiyan forms, Super Saiyan 2 is perfectly believable. Also, there was nothing to indicate that the Super Saiyan form wasn't modular since we knew basically nothing about it other than that it was super rare and super powerful.

There's nothing to indicate Piccolo can't unlock the ability to perform Namekian Fusion with the humans and slot them to specific body parts, increasing his battle power to God levels by putting Krillin in his chest, but it'd still be stupid to suddenly give him that ability.

This may just come down to personal preference, but when the answer to Super Saiyan being insufficient is "Super Saiyan harder! Or smarter! We're just not Super Saiyaning enough!" that's dumb. People complain a lot about Dragon Ball being all about powering up and transforming stronger, but it's the Cell Saga that really made this the central focus, with the defense against Cell focusing entirely on Super Saiyaning hard enough to Super Saiyan the best Super Saiyan that can be Super Saiyaned.

Other transformations and power-ups - including the original Super Saiyan transformation - at least had some creativity and variety to them. This was just Trunks, Vegeta, and Goku playing with the Character Customizer to figure out what combination of point allocation would best maximize the potential of the Super Saiyan form. I can accept Super Saiyan 2 as the realization of Gohan's long-standing Hidden Power arc, but Grade 2 and Grade 3 are ridiculous for even existing.

You are also grievously misusing the term Retcon. I'm also getting the distinct impression that you have a massive hatred for fanfiction.

Toriyama's decision to go "No, wait, they're NOT the Androids, THESE are the Androids," because his former editor thought 19 and 20 were lame is a retcon.

A case can be made that Dr. Gero's existence as well as the reveal of Cell when 17 and 18 still failed to impress said former editor qualify more as reveals than retcons, but 17 and 18 are totally a retcon.

Krillin was thinking with his head, can't blame him really. The guy hung around Roshi constantly so he probably picked up a few things.

"Picked up" nothing. Krillin got Kame-sennin to agree to train him in the first place via perviness.

The thing about Krillin is that the entire reason he started studying martial arts in the first place was to impress women. That's all he's wanted his entire life, so of course he made bad judgment calls regarding 18. It was a mistake to give him her detonator in the first place.

Which isn't excusing him, he was as stupid as Vegeta in helping Cell succeed. Just Saiyan, it didn't "rub off on him". He's been Kame-sennin's perfect pupil since childhood.

Mastery versus Training

...everybody involved in this discussion is wrong.

First of all, training in Base does provide better benefits, because no, it's not like gaining XP and leveling up. First, it's easier to get more training in Base because the same exercise gains more for the difficulty in performing it. Handicapping yourself during training has been a basic fundamental since Goku first learned from Kame-sennin. Second, it's better to get more training in Base because the same gains mean more; any gain made in Base is 50x more effective after transforming into a Super Saiyan than the same (much harder to make) gain made as a Super Saiyan.

If Goku benchpresses a planet as a Super Saiyan, not only will he gain less strength from the experience as a Super Saiyan due to the greatly decreased difficulty in doing so, but what strength he does gain from it will be 1/50th as effective as if he had done it in Base. This is exactly why the characters typically train in Base, because to not do so is the opposite of the weight training and Gravity Training we see them constantly doing.

Now, to the other part, "Mastering Super Saiyan" is not the same as training in Super Saiyan. Mastering Super Saiyan is about training your body to weather the transformation itself, something that cannot be done in Base. It's not about increasing strength, but decreasing the bleeding effect from using the form in order to sustain it for longer periods of time. Every Super Saiyan should spend some time mastering the transformation as Goku and Gohan did to become Full Power Super Saiyans, but this is not the same thing as training in Super Saiyan.

edited 29th Mar '15 10:07:50 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#13003: Mar 29th 2015 at 10:22:44 PM

speaking of time machines,going by Xenoverse,Trunks returned to his timeline after two years.somehow.

maybe the machine was faulty.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#13004: Mar 29th 2015 at 10:23:55 PM

You claim everybody involved in the discussion is wrong. And yet canon proves otherwise. Goku and Gohan trained and focused on the Super Saiyan transformation. Vegeta and Trunks didn't.

It's not hard to tell which of those came out stronger.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#13005: Mar 29th 2015 at 10:28:20 PM

Yeah. Trunks did. Problem is, he did it wrong and got a bad transformation with more flaws than benefits for his troubles.

What you are thinking of is Goku and Gohan working on mastering the Super Saiyan transformation, not just raising their battle power - the latter being the typical purpose of training. Their training involved sleeping as Super Saiyans and eating as Super Saiyans and bathing as Super Saiyans and just generally never powering down to Base so that their bodies would become accustomed to the form.

edited 29th Mar '15 10:31:44 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#13006: Mar 29th 2015 at 10:35:46 PM

That means their bodies become accustomed to the form. However, that doesn't change the fact that Goku focused a lot of his training on getting Gohan to ascend and then train with him as a Super Saiyan.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#13007: Mar 30th 2015 at 12:51:35 AM

I may be in the minority at the moment, but I really like the crystalline blue hair that Super Saiyan Beyond God has. Makes 'em look like gem people kinda.

edited 30th Mar '15 12:52:10 AM by Rinsankajugin

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#13008: Mar 30th 2015 at 12:51:38 AM

So, am I the only one that thinks that the blue-haired Super Saiyan God is a reference to Toriko in that his Blue Gourmet Demon is stronger than his Red Gourmet Demon, and the reason why his hair is blue in the first place?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#13009: Mar 30th 2015 at 12:54:07 AM

[up] Huh, did not know about that. Coincidentally interesting...

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#13010: Mar 30th 2015 at 1:12:10 AM

I doubt Toriyama cares or knows enough about Toriko to make a reference like that.

Red and blue used to clash is quite common.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#13011: Mar 30th 2015 at 1:41:26 AM

A thing I heard from another person on another site. Apparently when fire gets hotter, it shifts from red flames to blue flames. When ya look at SSJG, it has a red fiery aura. If you treat the aura and power like actual fire, then it makes perfect sense to have SSJBG to be flaming blue.

In fact, remember how in the original trailers for Battle of Gods, the SSJG transformation scene had a blue aura instead of the red one from the actual movie. What if that was a indicator of what was to come...

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#13013: Mar 30th 2015 at 1:54:04 AM

Sooo....Any fan nicknames for the new form?

Super Saiyan Blue?

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#13014: Mar 30th 2015 at 1:57:24 AM

I'm just calling it Super Saiyan Beyond God. (SSJBG) It's like the DBH name for it (Saiyan Beyond a God), but with "Super" added on because it's sounds better that way.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#13015: Mar 30th 2015 at 2:17:26 AM

If we find out this was all a fake, I'm going to start thinking it was some conspiracy theory to lower our standards before the movie came out.

Also, wow, I'm jumping on the cynical bandwagon for the first time ever but remember when you used to be able to beat an enemy without a new transformation? Those were the days.

edited 30th Mar '15 2:18:51 AM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#13016: Mar 30th 2015 at 2:29:08 AM

Yeah, the victories that didn't involve a new transformation were the best. Defeating both Piccolos with broken limbs, defeating Vegeta via teamwork, defeating hyper-regenerating Buu with a highly-concentrated ball of energy made of every secondary and supporting character in the series... even the defeat of Super 17 had merits, what with actually exploiting a weakness of his main ability.

edited 30th Mar '15 2:29:32 AM by JonnasN

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#13017: Mar 30th 2015 at 5:11:54 AM

The advance screening just ended in Japan, and spoilers are coming out. Apparently the blue Saiyan form is real, and involves Vegeta and Goku holding hands.

The Red Bull guy is a named mook, and strong enough to give Piccolo trouble. Gohan saves him, and it's probably Freeza that takes Gohan down.

BIG SPOILER: Goku wins. Kind of happy to see the outrage from this. First thing I've been happy about in the new movie.

edited 30th Mar '15 5:21:28 AM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#13018: Mar 30th 2015 at 6:08:01 AM

The Super 17 saga in GT can just go straight to HFIL.

Like. It's basically just Fusion Reborn only with robots.

And, like.

Of all of Toriyama's weird decisions lately, 17 being a ranger and getting married is neat. Good one.

[up] Do Beerus and Whis actually do anything?

Amazing.

edited 30th Mar '15 6:14:43 AM by unnoun

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#13019: Mar 30th 2015 at 6:13:23 AM

There's nothing to indicate Piccolo can't unlock the ability to perform Namekian Fusion with the humans and slot them to specific body parts, increasing his battle power to God levels by putting Krillin in his chest, but it'd still be stupid to suddenly give him that ability.

This is the second time that your counterpoint to something logical is to suggest something completely illogical. I mean, this and the "argument" you used against Future Bulma building a spaceship basically boils down to this:

"We could focus on our rocket technology to make one strong enough to get a few people to the Moon."

"Yeah or we could strap a pigeon's wings to a wail and get it to take us Mars."

One is feasible and the other is "The fuck are you smoking".

I don't mind you knowing damn near everything about Dragon Ball- it's quite convenient, in fact- but that doesn't mean you have to be an asshole about it with the bullshit I just explained and "Everyone in this argument is wrong." Even if everyone in an argument is wrong, that doesn't mean you say it. You just explain the truth and leave it at that.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#13020: Mar 30th 2015 at 6:23:32 AM

Oh my god I forgot that filler was a thing.

It's. It's more beautiful than I'd ever imagined.

They should all have learned the Kaioken.

King Kai should have given them all hand jobs.

He should have done everything in his power for them after that point because they are all hilarious.

Also this. Vegeta just laughing in the background while his theme music plays. It's so great.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#13021: Mar 30th 2015 at 6:24:34 AM

[up][up]Yeah that is indeed annoying as fuck and feels like Appeal to Ridicule.

[up][up][up] Haven't heard of Beerus doing much, but Whis uses his time reverse ability to give Goku another shot at defeating Freeza after Freeza destroys Earth.

Also, on the blue Saiyans... I've heard some people say it's just Super Saiyan God once Goku and Vegeta were able to absorb it properly and others say it's just Super Saiyan for those who have absorbed the God power... but that seemingly wouldn't match up to Battle of Gods having Goku with yellow Super Saiyan hair after absorbing the God power.

This isn't confirmed, but apparently Freeza states his battle power became 1.37 million after four months of training, form unspecified. Hilariously contradictory.

edited 30th Mar '15 6:54:49 AM by Saiga

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#13022: Mar 30th 2015 at 7:10:09 AM

a million?oh my god,he's lost power!

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#13023: Mar 30th 2015 at 7:29:03 AM

Maybe they're using a different unit system now.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#13024: Mar 30th 2015 at 7:35:05 AM

a lil more info.

Freeza comes to fight.Goku however is too much for his regular form.

Freeza goes Oscar Mode.starts overwhelming Goku,but this form has the same issue as 100% power form.lots of energy bleeding.Goku tries to abuse that,but he gets ambushed by one of Freeza's mooks,and he gets taken out.

Vegeta steps in,gives a Senju,and starts fighting the weakened Freeza.Freeza rage quits and blows the planet up,killing Vegeta.then the Whis stuff happens.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012

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