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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#12201: Mar 18th 2015 at 9:59:12 PM

So... maybe that feeling you get when two very, very stupid people argue, and you can't help but laugh as they flounder about trying to pretend they're smart? Maybe we can call that umami?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#12202: Mar 18th 2015 at 10:00:41 PM

Umami is henceforth a derogatory term for people being too excited and happy to the point of getting on one's nerves.

I mean, hey, bitter also already has emotional connotations in addition to gustatory ones.

edited 18th Mar '15 10:02:41 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#12203: Mar 18th 2015 at 10:28:51 PM

ANYWHO, nobody was really arguing anything lol.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#12204: Mar 18th 2015 at 11:50:26 PM

All I've really gotten from this is that everyone in Dragon Ball is cheap. Everyone.

And don't get me wrong, I'm pissed that Gohan is getting shafted yet again, but I understand it's necessary to do the story they want: That of Goku and Vegeta's rematch against Freeza. That's the entire purpose of this movie. It's in the poster, and it's in the merchandise. Everything else is just an ultimately worthless subplot.

edited 18th Mar '15 11:50:57 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#12205: Mar 18th 2015 at 11:56:22 PM

I still don't understand what the point of taking away the Ultimate powerup even is.

Even with it, he's still gonna job to Freeza, so... what's the friggin' point of taking away most of his power, again?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#12206: Mar 18th 2015 at 11:59:11 PM

Well Goku and Vegeta gotta be the special ones who get stronger, so they gave his Ultimate power to them and just gave Gohan Super Saiyan again.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#12207: Mar 19th 2015 at 12:09:29 AM

It's because they need at least 1 Super Saiyan. Toei doesn't have the balls to have no Super Saiyans in their movie. It's too iconic. So screw internal logic, we're using Gohan!

(Keep in mind, I have no proof of this. But that's what I feel is the reason.)

edited 19th Mar '15 12:12:01 AM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#12208: Mar 19th 2015 at 12:16:33 AM

It may as well be the reason; if Goku or Vegeta aren't going Super Saiyan and Goten and Trunks aren't in the movie, Gohan is the only candidate.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#12209: Mar 19th 2015 at 12:33:01 AM

So, who here thinks Veggie's gonna be the hero this time, because despite being powered up beyond a God, Goku looks like he's getting major ass handed to him.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#12210: Mar 19th 2015 at 12:33:45 AM

I don't really think that's the reason at all. Having Gohan go Super Saiyan and job does absolutely nothing from a marketing standpoint.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#12211: Mar 19th 2015 at 12:36:56 AM

huh.wonder if Whis would have reverted the Earth's destruction if Beers/Beerus/whatever did do the thing.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#12212: Mar 19th 2015 at 12:41:24 AM

I'm sure he could have if he wanted to, probably.

I just wonder what that power will do in the new movie...

edited 19th Mar '15 12:41:37 AM by Rinsankajugin

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#12213: Mar 19th 2015 at 1:01:57 AM

I dunno. I'm just trying to get into their head in a complete business perspective. We've seen that shot of Gohan going Super Saiyan in both trailers. It's obviously a bit of a selling point. A lot of people associate Dragon Ball Z with a Super Saiyan. Not having ANY will make it feel a bit...unfamiliar to some audiences.

Of course, Dragon Ball isn't JUST about Super Saiyans. But the latter half of Z is all about them, and that's what a lot of people remember the most.

And, yeah, it's obvious Vegeta is going to have a major role. He's on equal terms to Goku in terms of relevance. He's not second best, he's his equal.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#12214: Mar 19th 2015 at 3:37:53 AM

Keep in mind Goku & Vegeta are only as strong as they are not only because they train constantly, but because of their inherent genes. How many times do we have bring up the Zenkai's and Super Saiyan multipliers, those are the only reasons the Saiyans become so absurdly overpowered.

But. But those are species things.

I mean, genes and species aren't unrelated, but.

I dunno. It's a weird way to describe it.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#12215: Mar 19th 2015 at 4:30:35 AM

Vegeta and Goku are mutants. Saiyans aren't supposed to be as strong as even Cui, but it's noted that King Vegeta and his spawn are anomalies, and Goku is a battle genius.

I remember having this discussion before.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12216: Mar 19th 2015 at 5:23:07 AM

Gohan never liked fighting anyway, so him focusing on being a father instead of training is perfectly in character.

It certainly makes a more attentive father than Goku.

And i actually like that the humans get a chance to shine again. Because yes, they do have their fans. Nothing wrong with that.

edited 19th Mar '15 5:25:27 AM by Cortez

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12217: Mar 19th 2015 at 5:27:13 AM

Btw, do you guys think the third DLC pack for Xenoverse will have Golden Frieza?

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#12218: Mar 19th 2015 at 5:38:03 AM

As it is now the characters in the packs are:

  1. GT Goku, Pan and GT Trunks
  2. Mira, Towa, Nova Shenron and Eis Shenron
  3. Jaco

I think Demigra will be in Pack 3 and maybe Golden Frieza if the movie is out by then. What unplayable characters had actual movesets in the base game when they hacked the game?

edited 19th Mar '15 5:40:00 AM by LordofLore

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
Enlong Court Dragon from The Underground Facility Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Court Dragon
#12220: Mar 19th 2015 at 6:32:03 AM

Re:attentive father. One should remember that, post-Raditz, Goku was continually being thrown at one imminent crisis or another. Choosing to stay dead after Cell was probably kind of selfish in a way, though. Especially since he'd already learned that him being dead is no deterrent to people trying to take revenge on him through his family or planet.

I have a message from another time...
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#12221: Mar 19th 2015 at 6:56:59 AM

Just being a Saiyan isn't enough, but it is almost a requirement to get that strong.

Piccolo, Frieza, and the Androids all disagree.

Goku was classed as a low class by birth, but even Gohan had a pathetic power level to begin with. That classification means nothing, Goku is superbly special.

Gohan had a tremendous power to begin with, he just didn't know how to use it. Goku was a tough kid by Earth standards, but he never had a secret hidden power that would boost him to levels greater than even the most experienced adult Saiyans for short bursts whenever he lost his temper. Before he started training, he had a battle power of 10, while Gohan was smashing around a 1,500 battle power super-warrior unprecedented on their planet.

He still wasn't exactly Vegeta-tier yet, and wouldn't be able to make much of it until he trained to master his incredible power, but Gohan might as well have been Frieza as far as comparison to pre-training Goku is concerned.

Also, Gohan not training isn't the reason Goku (and possibly Vegeta) are stronger than him now.

Strength is basically a result of specialness and training. Goku's specialness and training previously didn't result in him being as strong as Gohan... so his specialness got increased.

That's it. He outright said in BOG that training wouldn't do it, so he went the God route, got to keep it because special, and surpassed Gohan's prime well before training with Whis. Gohan's lack of training is just a means to strip his power (including a form that was never a result of training...) so he can be sidelined further. It wasn't even needed for Goku/Vegeta to get stronger.

That the form is not the result of training doesn't mean his power can't wane. We've already had this discussion about Tien and Krillin: Krillin's lack of training probably did reduce the power he got from Guru, but it is highly doubtful it would have been enough to let Tien or Yamcha catch up to him.

The same assessment holds for Gohan. As you said, Goku and Vegeta surpassing him isn't about his lack of training. His power didn't wane just to make room for them because that is unnecessary. So, from a narrative perspective, if it is completely unnecessary for Gohan to stop training in order to let Goku and Vegeta to take the spotlight, is it possible that maybe there's a different reason for it than "Toriyama hates Gohan and wants his fans to suffer?" Maybe because it's just in-character for him to do that?

Oh, and Goku earned his power ups? Nope. He didn't know how Zenkai worked, so that was a fluke that makes up the majority of his Namek arc power, he did nothing to earn Super Saiyan, he drank magic water to get strong enough to beat Daimao, and he did the God ritual to face Beerus. Now most of his power can be boiled down to God power, which he didn't earn.

A fluke brought on by intense Gravity Training in 100x gravity to raise his battle power and the following consumption of Senzu. It was a fluke that Vegeta got as strong as he did because he was just fighting guys and getting his ass kicked; Goku worked his ass for the explicit intent of increasing his power on his way to Namek and was successful. He may not have known about zenkai, but you can't say his results when he arrived on Namek were anything but the product of Goku's deliberate effort.

I'll grant you Super Saiyan and the God transformation, but with a caveat that the Super Saiyan transformation was only good enough to bail him out the one time; after that, he had to train it and master it. If there's any theme to be taken from the jumbled mess that is the Android Saga, it's that Super Saiyan stopped being good enough almost immediately; once again, the characters had to put hard work and effort into making it work for them.

And the God transformation didn't even give out that one freebie. It failed. Straight-up failed. Super Saiyan God wasn't good enough, Goku could not defeat Beerus even with this massive, free power-up, and now he and Vegeta are training under Whis to get stronger.

Krillin got a free power-up that left him still too weak to compete, Goku learned the Kaioken - Free Power-Up: The Technique - and had to push it to heretofore unprecedented levels in order to get any results from it even against the first opponent he needed the move to overcome, Piccolo got free power-ups on two separate occasions that let him be awesome for a short time before being immediately outclassed again.

I'll add another one, too: the Fusion Dance that allowed Goten and Trunks to become Gotenks, a massive power boost that didn't amount to shit and got their asses kicked by Majin Buu all the same. They had to train hard in the Room of Spirit and Time after getting it in order to have any results come from it.

Yes, free power-ups are plentiful in the universe, but it's not often that they're enough without the hard work Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta frequently put into mastering them.

Dragon Ball never had that kind of theme. It started out with children developing super powers and then using those to brute force more skilled masters who dedicated their life to the art, some of which retired or become obsessed with revenge. I bet Chappa killed himself after the second time.

I was actually going to bring up Ten vs Kuririn. A confirmed case of hard work failing to match someone who slacked off after a free powerup.

Is that what you saw? Because I vividly remember one of those skilled masters defeating Goku in the first Tenkaichi Budokai, to drive home the point that just being naturally talented isn't good enough, he has to keep pushing himself and working harder because there will always be someone more powerful than him.

He lost the second to a skilled martial artist too.

Vegeta and Goku are mutants. Saiyans aren't supposed to be as strong as even Cui, but it's noted that King Vegeta and his spawn are anomalies, and Goku is a battle genius.

I remember having this discussion before.

They're not mutants.

Vegeta is a super-elite gifted by his amazing genes which is why he so thoroughly outclasses Goku and Gohan when they first meet. Goku was gifted only with garbage genes but learned at an early age to keep challenging himself and never stop pushing his limits, which is why he surpassed Vegeta's special super-elite genes.

If their power was solely a product of specialness, Vegeta would be the insurmountable greatest warrior of all the Saiyan characters, because he is the super-elite Prince of All Saiyans by natural gifts alone - but it was made clear to him on Namek that he can't just coast on that forever. Every time Vegeta has stopped to admire Goku's greatness, it was his personality, not his genes, he was admiring.

edited 19th Mar '15 7:01:38 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#12222: Mar 19th 2015 at 7:31:17 AM

I mean, admiring his genes sounds like something that would lead into an mpreg fic.

At the very least it'd be some sort of yaoi or slash.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#12223: Mar 19th 2015 at 7:41:24 AM

Well, the series DOES have a pretty strong yaoi fanbase.

For largely the same reason Sailor Moon has a pretty strong yuri fanbase. When an overwhelming majority of your cast is of a single gender, it tends to create a similar ratio among your ships.

edited 19th Mar '15 7:42:37 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#12224: Mar 19th 2015 at 8:08:32 AM

[up][up][up]Didn't Vegeta even admit that Goku has a natural talent that he'll never be able to surpass :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#12225: Mar 19th 2015 at 8:22:46 AM

wild mass guessBeating god-Frieza boosts Vegeta's fatal pride again, and he jumps back to the dark sidewild mass guess


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