That's what I mean; you're looking at this from an extreme In-Universe example. I'm going by authorial intent, I don't give two-shits about what's going in-universe atm, I'm focusing on real life events here.
And from my perspective, I see no real reason why Toriyama is doing this to Gohan other than to pander to the fanbases of the more popular characters, something I vehemently disagree with. I don't even mind him being demoted back down to a supporting character and Goku taking back the reigns, but I'm kind of miffed he's now going out of his way of undoing all of things that were established about Gohan just to justify taking him out of the spotlight.
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.I should clarify: I do care about in-universe details, but when the problem exists out of universe no in-universe justification is going to fix it. Sure it's even worse when these things happen without explanation (GT) but explaining something in-universe does nothing to justify a bad authorial decision.
Also this totally fucks up established plot points - Gohan always had more dormant power than Goku and Vegeta, but Battle of Gods retconned that and gave Vegeta Gohan's rage boost.
It's not about how Gohan was once strongest but because of the reasons for it. Goku was once strongest, sure, because Gohan hadn't realized his potential. Now, though, Goku and Vegeta are the ones with the potential.
Edit: and it was a plot point that Gohan would be Goku's successor. Manga even outright says he'd be the main character from that point on. Yes, that isn't promising that forever, but it was never properly resolved and just swept under the rug. Total fuck up.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:15:23 PM by Saiga
And before anyone says "Oh well its because Gohan didn't train", that still doesn't change the fact that he had more raw power than both Goku or Vegeta, regardless if the latter two trained more.
Its like if I was naturally capable of running great distances due to my genes. You can work your body out all you want, but you can't train "genes" so I'll always just be a naturally better runner.
If training simply made you the strongest there is, then Vegeta should have surpassed Goku a long ass time ago.
Pfffffft
edited 18th Mar '15 2:17:58 PM by BlackYakuzu94
A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.It's funny, I think Dragon Ball might've inspired the "new surpass old" theme in Naruto because while it isn't explicit in Dragon Ball it is all over the place. Roshi mentions it, the Saiyan children surpass their fathers, Freeza is stronger than his dad, Piccolo would kind of count, Oob, etc.
that and it has been made pretty clear training wouldn't make Gohan stronger than them any more.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:19:34 PM by Saiga
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Quite literally nothing you said about genes was true. At all. Someone with good running genes can still be a lazy ass and be beaten by someone with less good running genes that actually puts in the work.
I don't understand why people think otherwise.
The best olympic sprinters do not actually just sit around all day and get by off of their genes.
Anyone who told you otherwise doesn't actually know a goddamned thing about genetics.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:27:28 PM by unnoun
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That.
Gohan has far more fighting potential than Goku and Vegeta but he consistently squanders it. As a result, he is the weaker fighter save for rare instances when either he puts in the effort to train or has his potential artificially brought out of him.
CAN be the strongest and IS the strongest are two very different things.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:40:04 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I mean, if Gohan cared enough to train and if he was the one who had used the Super Saiyan God boost and got to keep it, he'd be stronger, sure. More naturally potential and jazz.
But if the best sprinter in the world quit in their prime, and stopped practicing and stopped keeping themselves in shape, then they wouldn't be the best for much longer.
...Mind, there's apparently a month or so between when Frieza is revived and when he comes to Earth after finishing his training inside of black holes, so.
It kinda does.
Vegeta and Goku put in a lot more work than he would. Even ignoring the Super Saiyan God stuff.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:45:22 PM by unnoun
Remember: in Dragon Ball, just sitting around being super-strong without having to put in any effort to get there is a villain trope. Characters are frequently punished for being complacent with their battle powers via being surpassed by other characters who, while less "naturally" powerful, put in the work and effort to increase their battle power and keep it up.
Hard work and effort has been beating "Just naturally gifted" characters since the Saiyans landed on Earth. Why should Gohan be any different?
Piccolo and Vegeta took being surpassed as a personal challenge and embraced the hard work and effort side of things, and their battle powers increased tremendously as a result. Gohan didn't, because being the strongest fighter in the universe, able to kick all the asses, has never been a major desire of his for the entirety of his character history; getting stronger was something he did because it had to be done, not because he wants to live a life of fighting increasingly stronger foes. He had a chance to opt out, and he took it.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:48:33 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
(x4) Or when he gets really mad. Basically, Gohan is like a last resort. When things get really crappy, he might be able to stand up. If Goku and Vegeta fail, Gohan MIGHT get strong enough? But this isn't a Gohan movie, anyway. It's a Vegeta movie.
And, sure, Krillin's been in almost every movie...as the Plucky Comic Relief. The interview with Krillin's VA for the blog hints that he has a really awesome moment where he's like "I'm a human" and is proud of it. We've had movies like Tree of Might, where the humans can't even take MINIONS on their own. This is overdue, for me. Is it unlikely? Sure. But I don't care. It's pure Fanservice, and I'm going to have a ball with it.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:47:21 PM by LOLypop1224
The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!Although, again, there's seemingly a time gap between when Frieza was resurrected and when he came to Earth to fuck shit up.
Preparing a bit more for that might have been a good idea.
And, also, I was thinking of Frieza training somewhere with really high gravity and the singularity of a supermassive black hole would do the trick probably.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:52:10 PM by unnoun
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Well, if any human's going to do it, it's Krillin. He was already stronger than even the most elite of Frieza's men, bar one, last we clocked him. Frieza gets the excuse of having never trained before to justify increasing his battle power immensely, but his minions can't really justify plopping in like, "Hi, guys, I'm as tough as the Androids, way stronger than Frieza was, for no good reason!"
For consistency's sake, they should be Ginyu level at best.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:52:58 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.As I already said, though, Gohan having that potential has kind of been retconned out.
and Goku always got by because he was special. Freeza's going to be relevant because he's special.
Same with Piccolo, he only means anything because the nameless namek was special. Same with Vegeta...
They worked hard but they're all special and need that to be anything.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:55:43 PM by Saiga
Preparing a bit more for that might have been a good idea.
Well, seeing as not so long ago, attack of two aliens each as strong as Freeza were treaded as a good way to liven up a party I can't exactly blame them for not taking this too seriously.
edited 18th Mar '15 2:55:57 PM by Shlugo_the_great
Goku stopped being able to get by on "just being special" pretty much after Pilaf. He embraced hard work and effort to increase his battle power and learn new ways of fighting right off the bat, compensating for his failure genes with diligent training, mastering new techniques and abilities, etc. He was naturally gifted to an extent but he still had to try very hard and put in a great deal of effort to get to where he was.
Gohan was much the same. His tremendous potential manifested in brief explosions of power that were too short to alter the course of any battle they appeared in overmuch. "Yay, he landed a hit on Frieza and now his battle power is back down to useless and Frieza is effortlessly kicking his ass!" His Hidden Power was all but worthless until after a great deal of work and effort were put into mastering it and turning it into the Super Saiyan 2 transformation.
Yes, Gohan is special, he's naturally gifted, has awesome potential, etc. But all of that is meaningless if he doesn't put in the work. He doesn't get to coast on being the strongest fighter in the entire franchise forever if he's not willing to spend any time keeping it up, because that is not, and never has been, how Dragon Ball works.
edited 18th Mar '15 3:03:51 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Saiga isn't saying that the characters don't work hard. He's saying that just hard work wouldn't be enough.
It's the difference between Goku and Gohan. Both are 'special', Gohan significantly more so, but it's Goku who puts in the work to get the most out of his natural gifts, while Gohan isn't interested in his gift for fighting at all, instead much more interested in using that brain of his. Ironically, Gohan, while a genius, does do a metric fuckton of studying and has done so for all of his life, so even then you can't call him lazy, he's still a hard worker, just at a different thing.
The characters might only be relevant because of their special power... But you can't say that's all they rely on. No, that's a criticism we reserve for Naruto.
edited 18th Mar '15 3:09:03 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariI always thought it was neat/depressing that Grandpa Gohan's power level was actually probably higher than Goku's was as a Great Ape but the Oozaru form was just heavy as balls.
I mean, in most situations Gohan's priorities are better and more useful/productive than Goku's.
edited 18th Mar '15 3:10:06 PM by unnoun
Actually, it's very likely that Goku's powerlevel as a Giant Monkey was superior. The powerlevel of '2' was only from the TV Special and it's not really canonical.
In most situations, Gohan would be the smarter character. The problem is that this is Dragon Ball, where there is ALWAYS someone looking for an excuse to see a pretty Earth-Shattering Kaboom.
edited 18th Mar '15 3:12:05 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariGoku does not have failure genes. The only person who believed that did a 180 and realized Goku is just inherently special and always will be.
Prior to battle of gods he owed most of his power to being a Saiyan, now he owes it to standing in a circle with his friends and being so special he keeps the God power.
He's always trained, but that would have made no difference if he wasn't special. Meanwhile if he didn't train he'd still have plenty of methods available to him to become stronger. Obviously, not as strong, but Dragon Ball clearly doesn't put hard work first.
Also Freeza. Was the strongest in the universe without training. Shaping up to be God tier with minimal training.
edited 18th Mar '15 3:15:18 PM by Saiga

What established plot points does it "fuck up"? That Gohan was the strongest in the universe at one point in time in the past? Because that's still true.
Gohan surpassing Goku didn't "fuck up" Goku becoming the strongest in the universe when he transformed into a Super Saiyan and defeated the previous bearer of the title.
It wasn't a plot point that Gohan will forevermore be the protagonist and carry the entire series on his shoulder in all future events. That was an authorial intent, and one that was ultimately left behind in favor of a different authorial intent.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.