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diddyknux Angel, not Demon.. Unless you piss her off.. from Diddy Kong Country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Angel, not Demon.. Unless you piss her off..
#120976: May 20th 2022 at 8:21:53 PM

I'd even give Grandpa Gohan bonus points for when he came back for a day, in no way blaming Goku for his death.

You know what? That's a filler or even a one-off manga chapter I would've liked to see. Goku meeting Grandpa Gohan in the afterlife. Seeing as he got to come back for a day, its implied Gohan also got to keep his body, right? Could've been a nice moment. And all the stories Goku would have to tell him about!

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#120977: May 20th 2022 at 8:24:35 PM

I like to imagine that Gohan chose to be reincarnated as Gohan.

randomness4 Snow Ghost from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Snow Ghost
#120978: May 20th 2022 at 8:24:44 PM

Keeping your body seems unrelated to that 1 day return to Earth thing...

Obviously he did, because he couldn't request it otherwise...of course.

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#120979: May 21st 2022 at 12:16:20 AM

Semi-joking: So if Bardock is disqualified from being Goku's dad, does that mean Gine is disqualified from being his mom? If so, who counts as Goku's mom?

Re: Saiyan traits. Doesn't Super include a scene where Vegeta states that Saiyans are naturally drawn to strong-willed women which is why he and Goku married Bulma and Chi-Chi respectively.

So even tastes in women are a shared Saiyan trait.tongue

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: Aug, 2015
The Head of the Hydra
#120980: May 21st 2022 at 1:07:39 AM

Which makes it amusing that Bardock’s wife is the exact opposite of that.

Turns out Bardock is more of an aberrant Saiyan than his Earth-raised son. [lol]

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Snow Ghost from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Snow Ghost
#120981: May 21st 2022 at 1:30:48 AM

They should stop having Vegeta say things about a culture that died out when he was a kid.

Edited by randomness4 on May 21st 2022 at 4:32:00 AM

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: Aug, 2015
The Head of the Hydra
#120982: May 21st 2022 at 1:36:47 AM

TBF he did have Nappa by his side for years.

He's an old guy so he prolly taught him some stuff about Saiyan culture.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Cozzer Since: Mar, 2015
#120983: May 21st 2022 at 2:06:23 AM

Saiyan boomers are a concept too horrifying for words.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#120984: May 21st 2022 at 3:22:38 AM

Vegeta: starts rambling about Saiyan pride again.

Gohan, Goten and Trunks: Okay, boomer.

Yes, I know the meme is old, but let me have this one.

Here's Totally Not Mark's take on whether or not Bardock is "ruining" Dragon Ball.

Edited by windleopard on May 21st 2022 at 11:27:47 AM

Azulmagia Since: Mar, 2021 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#120985: May 21st 2022 at 5:19:34 AM

Speaking of giving Goku's traits to other Saiyans, I don't think I felt that anywhere as strongly as when Vegeta bit Granolah. That felt like a definitely not Vegeta move.

TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#120986: May 21st 2022 at 5:34:51 AM

With regards to Grandpa Gohan, it's a little ambiguous. Baba's ability to bring people back for 1 day is a separate metaphysic from keeping your body; There's no indication that the two are related.

Most of this stuff wasn't an idea in Toriyama's head yet when Gohan returned for Baba's Tournament, however. So trying to discern Gohan's fate through that one match with Goku is difficult. However, Gohan's own words are telling: He's not practicing martial arts in the afterlife.

Gohan took his death as, essentially, a cosmic retirement. He's hanging out, enjoying the rewards his sweet, sweet karma earned him. He actively does not want to return to life, and the closest thing to an explanation for how he's spending his time that he gives is that the afterlife is full of so many foxy ladies. So, so many.

So I think it's most likely that Gohan's in Tengoku, the place that Enma-Daio wanted to send Goku in the first place. He went to wispy cloud heaven and is spending his time hooking up with wispy cloud women.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 21st 2022 at 5:35:24 AM

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FrozenWolf2 Horni Demon LORD from HORNI LAND Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Horni Demon LORD
#120987: May 21st 2022 at 6:09:05 AM

Goku would have been bored in 5 minutes and looking for a way to escape wispy cloud heaven... and then swoon over how strong the Angels are XD

_____

The ultimate problem with Goku's saiyaness override is the original point of the saiyan Saga was the ultimate rejection of the notion that Goku is a Saiyan

and then the ending happen... where Goku has to hobble together a frankly idiotic excuse to spare Vegeta

'Granted I agree that sparing Vegeta is thematically correct, Goku shows Mercy while Vegeta is Merciless the issue is Narratively it doesn't jive with Logic... Goku isn't THIS stupid for a battle IE the seeds of STUPID SAIYAN Goku is born right here

The Namek arc seems to try and "olive branch" it

IE Goku accepts he is biologically a saiyan but he is from EARTH and that's the only thing that matters

The Saiyans and their ways for all intent and purposes die with Vegeta

and Goku the one they cast out as worthless... due to ascending not just physically and spiritually Becomes the thing the saiyans always strived to be

THE SUPER SAIYAN

... The problem is well.. Vegeta lived past the Namek saga

I'm A Pervert not an Asshole!
thethirdwinklevoss Since: Mar, 2021 Relationship Status: I love you for psychological reasons
#120988: May 21st 2022 at 6:14:56 AM

[up] When I think about it, Vegeta staying dead at the end of Namek would solve a ton of problems I have with the series. Either that or keep him as a straight comedy character after that.

Sincerely insincere
diddyknux Angel, not Demon.. Unless you piss her off.. from Diddy Kong Country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Angel, not Demon.. Unless you piss her off..
#120989: May 21st 2022 at 6:20:26 AM

[up][up] Goku would be bored after 5 minutes? So what you're saying is... We can make a Dragon Ball version of the "All Dogs Go to Heaven" movies.[lol]

FrozenWolf2 Horni Demon LORD from HORNI LAND Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Horni Demon LORD
#120990: May 21st 2022 at 6:25:58 AM

...Will there be a heartbreaking scene of Goku going to hell but saying goodbye to Chichi?

I'm A Pervert not an Asshole!
Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#120991: May 21st 2022 at 6:26:58 AM

Semi-joking: So if Bardock is disqualified from being Goku's dad, does that mean Gine is disqualified from being his mom? If so, who counts as Goku's mom?

Yes but she can’t really be more disqualified than she already is which is a trivia point. She’s a name for a wiki, not a parent.

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Azulmagia Since: Mar, 2021 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#120992: May 21st 2022 at 6:45:22 AM

[up][up]Wasn't that a thing in GT? Just with Piccolo and Gohan?

randomness4 Snow Ghost from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Snow Ghost
#120993: May 21st 2022 at 6:46:07 AM

Goku's reason for keeping Vegeta alive is a slightly altered version of his reason for keeping Piccolo alive...

Goku rejecting his Saiyan heritage has never meant much, he rejects it but has no problem cheerfully telling King Kai he's a Saiyan.

All of Goku's traits being rewritten to be because of his Saiyan-ness only exists to give characteristics to a dead race we'll never see.

Vegeta then occasionally shares cultural things.

Of course if it was only physical traits, it would've been fine...

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.
diddyknux Angel, not Demon.. Unless you piss her off.. from Diddy Kong Country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Angel, not Demon.. Unless you piss her off..
#120994: May 21st 2022 at 7:02:46 AM

[up][up] Almost. Piccolo let's himself die at the end if the Baby arc so the Black Star Dragon Balls will dissappear, and that's when he gives his farewell to Gohan. In the Super 17 arc, Piccolo rescues Goku from hell, and decides to stay there as penance for his past life misdeeds as King Piccolo. I don't think he has an interaction with Gohan there.

windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#120995: May 21st 2022 at 7:18:07 AM

Speaking of giving Goku's traits to other Saiyans, I don't think I felt that anywhere as strongly as when Vegeta bit Granolah. That felt like a definitely not Vegeta move.

Vegeta: Let's see how you like it when someone else steals one of your moves, Kakarot.

jouXIII The One with Knowledge of Things from Between the Multiverses (X-Troper) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
The One with Knowledge of Things
TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#120997: May 21st 2022 at 8:01:47 AM

Goku rejecting his Saiyan heritage has never meant much, he rejects it but has no problem cheerfully telling King Kai he's a Saiyan.

Ehh, there's context to that. Kaio was making a point that Saiyans are some of the biggest, strongest, super-duper toughest guys in the universe, to the extent that Goku can't possibly imagine how powerful and battle-hungry they are. Goku self-identified as a Saiyan to explain that yes, he actually does understand what they're like.

Goku rejecting his Saiyan status doesn't change the fact that he has the same biological imperatives as they do. When he rejects the Saiyans, he's not literally saying, "I made a wish to Shenron to biologically convert me into a human, and now I no longer have any Saiyan biology within me." He's rejecting his cultural heritage, not his literal species. He literally is a Saiyan, but he refuses to live as a Saiyan.

It's not like he walked up to Kaio and went, "Hi, my name is Kakarot and I'm a proud Saiyan Warrior. Train me to bring glory to Planet Vegeta!"

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slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: Aug, 2015
The Head of the Hydra
#120998: May 21st 2022 at 8:13:16 AM

That is funny how Saiyans as a culture and Saiyans as a species are synonymous.

There's not really a distinction since there is no other form of Saiyan society like a more peaceful one. Just the one civilization thriving entirely on pillaging.

They are like Spartans, where every citizen is beholden to the Spartan war machine.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
FrozenWolf2 Horni Demon LORD from HORNI LAND Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Horni Demon LORD
#120999: May 21st 2022 at 8:20:43 AM

[up][up]

Pretty much... and then...

He started answering calling himself Kakarot

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on May 21st 2022 at 10:21:23 AM

I'm A Pervert not an Asshole!
TobiasDrake Queen of Good Things, Honest (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Queen of Good Things, Honest
#121000: May 21st 2022 at 8:29:26 AM

     Episode 212 - Happiness Times a Million! The Junior Champion is Decided!! / Best of the Boys 

Anime Only: This episode opens with a sort of refresher, replaying the great hits of the previous fight. Goten and Trunks rush each other and slam their forearms into each other like at the beginning of the match. They briefly trade blows, then split up by backflipping away from each other before rushing in and colliding again.

It plays all the beats from the start of their manga fight, but then instead of trading blows when they come together again, they do the mutual face-punch from the anime's bonus action. Then we cut to Mr. Satan freaking out again.

Goten and Trunks fly up into the air, trade blows for a couple seconds, then split up and return to the stage. The crowd goes wild. Goten and Trunks do that part again where they face each other, grinning like jackals with visible scuff marks on their faces from the solid hits they each landed during the manga action. Except Toei forgot to draw the scuff marks, so they both look pristine and unharmed.

Manga Only: The manga opens on the crowd flipping their shit over what they're seeing. This is the most amazing thing ever! Those kids were levitating in the air! What a spectacle! Though some accuse the kids of using tricks, of course; Mr. Satan has poisoned the discourse around supernatural martial arts.

There's one other scene featuring a TV reporter, but Toei moves that to much later in the episode.

Anime/Manga: Announcer silently loses his mind. These kids were associated with Son Goku so he knew this fight would be good, and it's everything he dreamed it would be. This is it! This is the Tenkaichi Budokai as it's meant to be!

Facing off in center ring, Trunks reflects on Goten's progress. He's improved since the last time they fought. Goten takes the compliment. Gohan's been teaching him, you see.

Cool. Cool, cool. So, follow-up question. Trunks wants to know if Goten can do this: Offering only that cryptic warning, he puts his hands out to his sides, concentrating ki in a junior version of the Final Flash. The intent is clearly there to emulate the Final Flash, but his arms are too lax. Final Flash charges with arms straight out to the sides, while Trunks's arms are a little too far back and slightly bent.

Krillin and Gohan immediately panic. Is Vegeta Trunks crazy!? If he fires that, he'll surely hit the Earth the audience stands! But Goku tells them to chill. These kids are incredible. There's no way Trunks hasn't already accounted for that. He's not as insanely reckless as he looks.

Trunks releases his junior Final Flash, which is about the same size as a Kamehameha. He fires straight at Goten. Goten hops over it. The beam hurtles towards the audience stands, but Trunks curves it out of the way at the last second and sends it firing off harmlessly into the sky.

The crowd doesn't know what to make of that. That kid just shot a rocket out of his palms. What the hell was that? Announcer does know what to make of it, but he's too busy being relieved it didn't hit anyone to, like, do his job and explain the action taking place.

(Man, I love Announcer, but the 24th TB really robbed him of his announcing spirit. He should be out there saying shit like, "The kids are now floating in the air through Bukujutsu, the signature technique of Tsuru-senryu! What's this? Did Trunks just fire a Kamehameha, or is this some new manner of beam attack!?" Come on, man. None of this is new to you, and it's literally your job to explain it all to the crowd.)

Mr. Satan, however, recognizes that whole burning energy from the hands thing. He knows that shit. And now he's sweating bullets.

Goten lands back in the ring. That was super cool! And to answer Trunks's question, yes, he can do it too. Goten demonstrates by charging up the Kamekameha!

Yes. Kamekameha. He mispronounces it, giving Trunks a laugh.

Funimation snips this joke. Funi Goten pronounces the Kamehameha correctly, making it unclear what exactly Trunks is laughing about. Instead of correcting Goten's pronunciation, Trunks uses his lip flaps to ask if Gohan taught Goten to control the technique.

Goten fires the Kamekameha at Trunks. Trunks effortlessly dodge, bending his head out of the way and letting it fire over his shoulder. Announcer, behind him, is forced to dive for his life. When Goten tries to bend his beam away from the tournament hall behind Trunks, he skims the roof and blows off a chunk of it. Whoops.

Goku retracts his statement that the kids are obviously too good to make mistakes like that. Goten needs more control.

Videl and Satan at this point are both in a state of eye-bulging amazement, though Satan's is mixed with terror. That clinches it. He knows where he recognizes Goten from. This kid looks just like that guy who was at the Cell Games.

(Goku was a Super Saiyan that whole time, though, so I don't know why Satan would recognize his features in Goten.)

I think Funimation had a problem with that too, because Funi Hercule does not directly compare Goten to Goku. Instead, he merely states that these kids have the same powers as the people who fought Cell.

Trunks decides it'd be best to refrain from doing any more ki blasts. Goten clearly can't handle them, so in the interest of fairness, Trunks decides not to do any either.

Anime Only: Backstage, Idasamama forces Ikose and Idasa to do exercise drills instead of watching the final. They complain because they want to see the fight, but Idasamama's livid that these losers let themselves be defeated by those vulgar children.

Their father tries to argue that those kids are clearly special in some way, but Idasamama won't have it. Her children lose to no one. At the next Tenkaichi Budokai, she wants her boys to come back and clobber those brats! Until then, it's nothing for these kids but training, training, training!

(Uh, mam? Your kids are 14 and 15 years old. In three years, Goten and Trunks will still be in Junior Division, but Idasa and Ikose will have aged up into the adult tournament. They will not be competing against each other next Tenkaichi Budokai. In fact, the first opportunity they would even have to ever face each other in the ring again would be if all four boys are still into doing this at the 28th.

Y'know, the one Pan debuts in.)

Idasamama looks absolutely deranged here. She's gone full-blown Toei Chi-Chi but about martial arts instead of academia.

Funimation's getting better at their continuity nods since they started dubbing the first anime, but they still manage to slip up here. Their version of Idasamama intends for her boys to rematch Goten and Trunks next year. Apparently Funi hasn't learned how the tournaments are spaced out yet.

Anime/Manga: Trunks and Goten rush each other, both bent on victory. They grapple briefly at center stage. Trunks takes the upper hand, flippings Goten up into the air and hurls him upwards. Goten recovers, but it's too late; Trunks is already on the move. He swoops up behind Goten and grabs him in a stranglehold.

Goten frantically kicks his legs, struggling to free himself but to no avail. Trunks asks Goten to surrender.

Down below, the crowd discuss what they're seeing (since Announcer won't do his fucking job). Those kids are definitely levitating, right? Like. There's nothing else this could be. They've been hanging up there in one spot for way too long to still be beholden to gravity.

Staring straight at Goku, Vegeta pre-emptively gloats about his son's victory.

Trunks tells Goten again and again to surrender. This can't go on. He's restricting Goten's breathing by doing this; It needs to end, and the only way it ends is if Goten concedes the match.

Funi tones down the dialogue a bit. In the original, Trunks directly states that this hold could kill Goten if he doesn't concede, and practically pleads with him to throw in the towel before serious injury can occur. That's a little dark for Funi, so they just have Trunks say over and over that Goten can't break free and needs to give up.

Goten has a better idea. He transforms into a Super Saiyan, granting him the strength he needs to break free and return to the ring.

Videl's eyes nearly pop out of her head. Gohan curses Goten. Goku's amazed to learn that Goten can turn Super Saiyan; Nobody told him about that. Vegeta accuses Goku of cheating as if he's somehow responsible for this. And Mr. Satan has the ultimate confirmation that this is that guy's kid. With his hair all spiky and golden like this, there's no mistaking it.

Trunks more directly accuses Goten of cheating. They aren't supposed to turn Super Saiyan. That was the agreement everyone made. Goten apologizes for forgetting. In the manga, he reverts to base after being chastised by Trunks. The anime has him revert to base as soon as he gets back into the ring, for no clear reason. Chapter 240 ends here.

Funimation goes one step further and implies that Goten didn't forget. He cheated on purpose. Trunks directly accuses Goten of this, to which Goten replies with a wishy-washy, sing-song, "~Maybe!"

241 opens with Trunks making an offer to Goten: He thinks he can defeat Goten without using his left arm. Goten thinks he's full of it, but he dares Trunks to try. Trunks flies in and attacks with a series of right jabs, which Goten parries. With Trunks now handicapped, Goten's able to find openings to sweep a kick across his face, and then to land a right hook in his temple.

Remember that skipped scene with the reporter from the start of 240? Toei puts that here.

A TV reporter curses his fate. All of the cameras were destroyed in that mysterious camera-annihilation event earlier, so they can't film any of this. Those children are making the laws of physics cry with every punch, and not a second of it can be recorded and reported on. This is the worst day of any reporter's life.

Struggling to keep up with his own bad promise, Trunks breaks a different promise: He fires a ki blast from his right hand. Goten leaps high into the air to escape, then hovers up in the sky. Trunks watches him curiously; What could he be planning?

The crowd remarks on this again. Yep, definitely flying.

Anime Only: Goku's impressed by Goten's mastery of Bukujutsu.

Videl is too, and she's mad about it. She turns on Gohan, accusing him of giving Goten special training behind her back. Gohan lies and claims that he and Goten have been doing the same old, same old. Videl buys that for some reason, then turns her attention back to Goten. What else could possibly explain how good he is?

Anime/Manga: Goten suddenly declares, "Totsugeki!" which is Japanese for a bombastic, military-style "CHAAAAAAAAARGE!!!" He rockets downwards, using the pull of gravity to increase his speed beyond his own acceleration. Trunks recognizes what he's doing, but he's confident about his ability to react because he's been flying longer than Goten. He can outmaneuver Goten in the air any day of the week.

Funi snips Trunks's exposition on what Goten's doing and how he intends to counter it. They don't replace it with anything. In a rare turnaround, they delete dialogue and replace it with silence rather than deleting silence and replacing it with dialogue. The most he says is that he'll figure out what Goten's doing before Goten reaches him, and that's that.

Trunks waits for Goten to get into striking distance, then dodges to the side at the last second. Goten had already considered how incredibly telegraphed this move is and anticipated Trunks's escape, however. He only looked like he was blindly attacking. He hits the stage palms-first and throws himself, redirecting as much of his velocity as he can and sending him hurtling head-first towards Trunks.

(Goten has become a true master of Goku's Technique.)

Trunks, realizing his impending doom, panics and turns Super Saiyan. With the Super Saiyan's burst of strength and speed, he manages to maneuver above Goten, then nails him in the back with a ki blast fired from his left hand.

(So that's three separate promises broken in this one move. 1) No Super Saiyan, 2) No ki blasts, and 3) No using his left arm.)

It works. Trunks's shot hits Goten square between his shoulderblades. With the added momentum, Goten can't stop himself in time. He tries to recover with Bukujutsu, but ends up skidding to a stop with his feet firmly resting on a seat in the audience stands. That counts as touching down out of the ring. Goten is officially rung out.

The winner of the Junior Division is Trunks!

Anime Only: Toei treats us to a variety of reaction shots, either celebrating Trunks's victory or mourning Goten's defeat. Pretty much what you'd expect; Vegeta and Bulma are happy, the Son men are disappointed, Krillin's with Goku, Piccolo doesn't chime in at all.

The Muten-Roshi takes Trunks's performance as inspirational. Trunks gave this fight his very best, so Roshi's going to get out there and give his very best too. And by "give his very best", he means seize the opportunity to grab Bulma's ass, which is waving back and forth in front of him due to her victory dance.

Roshi only manages to get out of his seat with gropey hands, however; Bulma's not too distracted to clobber him.

Anime/Manga: While Anime Goku was busy mourning Goten's defeat, Manga Goku has other considerations on his mind. He's startled to learn that Trunks, too, can turn Super Saiyan. But he doesn't get long to think about that; Vegeta wants to brag! He claps a hand on Goku's shoulder and boasts of Trunks's genetic superiority, because of course that's what he credits Trunks's victory to.

Funi Vegeta doesn't take credit for Trunks's win. Instead, he's more condescendingly supportive. In a mocking tone, he tells Goku to cheer up; Goten put up a great fight, but only one can be the champion. Don't worry, there's always next year. (There's Funi misunderstanding the gap between tournaments again.)

Funi's Announcer also asks people to remember the names Goten and Trunks. He's sure we're going to be hearing them for a long time to come! This line makes me really sad about Goten and Trunks's future in this franchise.

Goten returns to the ring and accuses Trunks of cheating. He turned Super Saiyan and used his left arm! (And fired a ki blast, don't forget that.) Trunks reminds Goten that he, too turned Super Saiyan during the match. So they're even. Plus, he didn't use his left arm to hit Goten so it still counts, right? (Uh, no.) Stop whining about it.

Goten keeps sulking, however, so Trunks offers him any three toys that he wants. That cheers Goten up. (D'aww, friendship.)

Now that the Junior Division's wrapped up, it's time for the special event! Trunks has earned his right to fight the World Champion: Mr. Satan!

Oh. Oh, crap. Satan is screwed. Chapter 241 ends here.

Anime Only: Toei adds a scene where the Dragon Team makes fun of Satan. Goku, Krillin, and Vegeta all share a good laugh at how totally doomed this utter fraudster is. He can't beat Trunks! He's going to get wrecked! It will be hilarious!

Videl takes notice of this conversation, so Gohan dances around begging her to ignore them, and the episode ends here.

Toei padded the beginning of this episode by literally remixing the fight from the previous episode. [lol] They just do it all again before moving into the new material, but more quickly paced. Okay, guys.

Trunks wins! It seems he just comes from better breeding than Goten does! Trunks is a Super-Elite Hybrid, I guess! According to Vegeta, anyway!

No, but for real, Vegeta's genetic superiority and natural advantages over Goku have been brought up many times throughout Dragon Ball in contrast to Goku's hard work and diligence. However, there's never been any suggestion that Trunks and Goten have the same dynamic. Trunks is only slightly better than Goten, and that's credited to their small age difference more than anything else. Hybrids, it seems, are the great genetic equalizer.

Vegeta's talking out of his ass here. He's crediting Trunks's victory to his breeding because it's a way for him to take credit for Trunks's accomplishment. Had Trunks lost, it would have been because Trunks wasn't good enough. But Trunks won, so it's because Vegeta makes better crotch-spawn than Goku does.

That Vegeta's taking this match as a proxy-fight for him and Goku is apparent earlier on, too. I mean, it's been subtextual since the moment Vegeta went, "Wait, you and Goten are going to be fighting!? I am suddenly super invested in your kiddy playtime. Which of you is stronger!?"

But there's a moment earlier in the fight, when Goten turns Super Saiyan and breaks Trunks's hold, where Vegeta immediately turns on Goku and yells at him for cheating. Poor Goku is so confused. But Vegeta's ego is so desperate to get one over on Goku that he's using his child to fight Goku vicariously.

Vegeta may not be actively punching his son anymore, but he's still a terrible father.

This match is complicated and I love it for that. It's really hard to use it as a signifier of who's better due to the rampant cheating going on. If Goten hadn't cheated and used Super Saiyan, then Trunks probably would have KO'd him. But if Trunks hadn't triple-cheated and used a left-handed ki blast while Super Saiyan, Goten probably would have rung him out.

It's a really close fight.

EDIT: Wait a second, Vegeta is still actively punching his son. He laid Trunks out in retaliation for winning his "Hit me in the face and you get amusement park" challenge.

God, he's the fucking worst.

Edited by TobiasDrake on May 21st 2022 at 8:33:27 AM

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