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CheapMarzipan A Low Cost Confection from Texas, USA Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
A Low Cost Confection
Jan 14th 2022 at 9:38:19 AM

Honestly the Androids/Cell Saga is my favorite stretch of DB, despite itís issues. Itíll be interesting to see Tobiasís take on it.

Demetrios Black and White Beauty from Wheeling, Illinois (unfortunately) Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Black and White Beauty
Jan 14th 2022 at 9:39:25 AM

I can still remember a Dragon Ball magazine I had when I was a kid saying that Cell was the coolest villain in the franchise, with Frieza as a very close second.

Rin Tohsaka is the best Tsundere.
fredhot16 Media Nomad from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
Jan 14th 2022 at 9:40:51 AM

The most important bit of lore from this arc is that Kami has ghosts living in his basement.

Come and get your burgers!
fredhot16 Media Nomad from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Media Nomad
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
Jan 14th 2022 at 9:45:07 AM

Of all the things the Cell Saga fumbled, Krillin and Future Trunks have fantastic character arcs, Bulma is handled LEAGUES better than she was on Namek, and everything with Gohan from the point he leaves the Time Chamber is great, even if he was wasted before that point.

The Republican Party is a terrorist organization.
Bocaj Funny, but not helpful from Here Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny, but not helpful
Jan 14th 2022 at 9:45:54 AM

Vegeta going from thinking that super saiyans are a dumb myth legend to claiming he is definitely descended from a super saiyan is peak Vegeta

My original fictions and Essential Avengers liveblog
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
Jan 14th 2022 at 9:48:04 AM

Not just descended from A Super Saiyan, I distinctly remember him saying that he's descended from a BUNCH of Super Saiyans, he wants to make his Super Saiyan ancestors proud by finally realizing the legend and using the TRUE form of the Super Saiyan which they used in the past: Grade 2.

I have no idea if that was just the dub making shit up or if that was some insane crackhead Toei filler, but I KNOW that wasn't in the manga.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 14th 2022 at 10:51:14 AM

The Republican Party is a terrorist organization.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
Jan 14th 2022 at 9:55:04 AM

First of, given how heritage works, most sayians are probably descendants of a super Sayian.

Secondly, Vegeta sounds super salty that Goku beat him to the punch, and is making shit up to claim he was the first to the "real" form, only for Goku to come out with something much better. Peak Vegeta indeed.

Come and get your burgers!
TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Jan 14th 2022 at 10:01:51 AM

This will definitely be interesting. We are entering my least favorite arc of the original Dragon Ball run.

The Exposition Dragon, my Tumblr. Currently archiving my Dragon Ball liveblog.
randomness4 Snow Ghost from The Land of Inconvenience
Snow Ghost
Jan 14th 2022 at 10:02:23 AM

It's the least interesting...?

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.
Jan 14th 2022 at 10:04:21 AM

What youíre asking and what Tobias said are two different things.

CheapMarzipan A Low Cost Confection from Texas, USA Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
A Low Cost Confection
Jan 14th 2022 at 10:10:20 AM

[up][up][up]Less than Buu even? It seems like a fairly common opinion that Saiyans/Namek is better than Androids but I never heard that before.

Consider me more interested now.

Edited by CheapMarzipan on Jan 14th 2022 at 12:39:23 PM

randomness4 Snow Ghost from The Land of Inconvenience
Snow Ghost
Jan 14th 2022 at 10:12:08 AM

[up][up]It wasn't meant to be a question, but I may as well leave it now.

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.
fredhot16 Media Nomad from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Media Nomad
Jan 14th 2022 at 10:13:21 AM

[up]Then why put in a question mark at the end?

From this moment onwards, I am the King.
fredhot16 Media Nomad from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Media Nomad
Jan 14th 2022 at 10:19:57 AM

Double post but itís a new question: actually, I donít think youíve ever explained what puts the Buu Arc over the Android/Cell Saga for you, Tobes.

I even think youíve said it was one of your favorite arcs so, like the affordable pastry, Iím also curious as to why.

Edited by fredhot16 on Jan 14th 2022 at 11:05:22 AM

From this moment onwards, I am the King.
Jan 14th 2022 at 10:49:47 AM

In this sub-arc I would put the range of powers like this.

  • Gohan super-angry
  • Piccolo at full power.
  • Gohan angry
  • Piccolo weakened by Kami's guilt
  • regular gohan
  • Krillin.


Honestly the only thing that bothers me about the Android Saga is that in the previous arc it was made clear that even with bulma's best ship, it would take forever to get to Namek, and out of nowhere it turns out that on earth they can create machines of the time and androids that can sweep the floor with the emperor of the universe.

The only one that makes sense is Cell due to being a clone of a lot of strong fighters.


Basically:

  • Create a ship that can go fast to Namek?: Impossible, unless we have a Saiyan ship to apply reverse engineering.

  • Create technology that even the best scientists in the universe consider impossible?: Not a problem

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Jan 14th 2022 at 10:57:23 AM

Jan 14th 2022 at 10:55:31 AM

Capsules are awesome tech that has been around since the beggining. Bulma and her dad just weren't keen on FTL drives, but, hyperspecialized tech and awesome martial arts is what Earth has in this setting.

TobiasDrake Exposition Dragon from Colorado, USA Relationship Status: She's holding a very large knife
Jan 14th 2022 at 11:00:39 AM

     Drake's Beef with the Cell Arc 
For me, the Android arc is just so joyless. It's Dragon Ball at its most dark, edgy, and serious; Comparable to Piccolo-Daimao. Fun is dead and now only death and horror awaits.

Frieza was pretty edgy too, but he at least had the Ginyu Tokusentai to spice things up. With Cell, the stakes feel lower, the scope is reduced, but it's all so dire, so hopeless, and for so long.

But being serious isn't necessarily a problem. Dragon Ball gets serious sometimes. The reason the Cell arc's seriousness doesn't work for me is because I can't get invested in its villains. Dr. Gero is a character I can get my head around. He's an RRA asshole back for revenge. Simple. Easy to understand.

But he leaves the story quickly and from there, it gets weird. 17 and 18 are retconned as being the merciless Androids who butcher the future, but they're barely even villains. They kill Dr. Gero rather than carry out his evil whim. Which leaves the story with no remaining reason for conflict with them, and that can't happen. So, for absolutely no reason at all, they decide to carry out Dr. Gero's evil whim anyway.

They refuse to be slaves to Gero's Kill Goku agenda, but for the sake of the plot happening, decide to go Kill Goku anyway. Sure. Whatever. It's completely fucking stupid, but whatever.

But then we get Cell. And Cell's worse, because the only reason he's even a villain is because he's a jerk. That's it. That's the beginning and end to his villainy. He has one goal, and only one goal: To become stronger by eating 17 and 18, the current villains of this arc who someone needs to do something about anyway, so it's not like we actually care if they die.

Cell's motive is to get stronger. Big fucking deal. This is Dragon Ball. Everyone wants to get stronger. But we have to stop Cell from getting stronger because he's a jerk. There comes a point where the protagonists power up Vegeta, genocidal slaughterer of countless worlds, to thwart Cell's ambitions of being stronger.

Why is it okay to make Vegeta stronger but not okay to make Cell stronger? In what way is Cell worse than Vegeta? Who knows. Fuck it. Doesn't matter. Vegeta is our genocidal monster, so let's power him up as far as he can go and throw him at Cell. Whatever it takes to stop Cell from being strong, because we have decided that we don't like him.

But, all in all, Cell wins. He defeats the villains of the arc and that's bad for some reason, and he becomes strong.

And.

Then.

What?

Cell wins. He accomplishes the one and only thing he set out to accomplish. He fulfills his entire motivation. He gets what he wanted. He's done. His story is complete. But he's been deemed the villain of the piece and nobody's beaten him yet, so we need to make up some excuses to keep fighting him.

So Cell decides, for absolutely no reason at all, to go stand in a field and dare protagonists to beat him up. And for the sake of giving this thing any fucking stakes at all, he'll blow up the planet if no one does. Sure. Whatever.

They go there. They fight him. Then Goku decides that it's now time for Gohan, a character who has barely done a thing in this entire arc, to step into his shoes and become the main character. He announces apropos of nothing that this is actually what the story's been about, as of five seconds before he decided that. Gohan becomes Super Saiyanier than the Super Saiyan and has it out with Cell. The end.

This whole arc feels so forced to me. The villains work overtime to even find excuses to be the villains, and I just can't get invested in that the way I am with the Planet Trade or the Red Ribbon Army or even Piccolo-Daimao. The conflict feels so manufactured that it makes it difficult for me to care about the cool moments like Final Flash or the Father-Son Kamehameha.

This entire arc feels like one big, long, dire, apocalyptic, ultra-serious mega-battle that's happening for absolutely no fucking reason at all - A complaint that winds up echoed in-universe by Gohan himself.

In terms of plotting, Majin Buu isn't much better than Cell. But it does feature the resurrection of fun. It reinjects the lighthearted tone and utter silliness that Dragon Ball's been missing for a while, and I give it a lot of points for that.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 14th 2022 at 11:06:20 AM

The Exposition Dragon, my Tumblr. Currently archiving my Dragon Ball liveblog.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
Jan 14th 2022 at 11:01:57 AM

Also, re-introducing Freeza as having gotten even stronger since his near-defeat due to the obviously-shitty mechanical parts was a great way of establishing that science can surpass natural biology, even the slapdash science the PTO has, so imagine what the guy who made Eighter is capable of!

The Republican Party is a terrorist organization.
Jan 14th 2022 at 11:06:24 AM

For my part, I consider that in the Android Saga is when Sorting Algorithm of Evil stopped making any sense.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
Jan 14th 2022 at 11:08:48 AM

I don't think so, for the reason I just explained. Science > Natural Mutant Strength, as proven by Freeza himself.

The Republican Party is a terrorist organization.
fredhot16 Media Nomad from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Media Nomad
Jan 14th 2022 at 11:19:48 AM

I think Jo also pointed out that the science of a planet may not be that strong considering that it's regarded as a backwater so puny that Saiyan children were sent to cut their teeth on crushing it along with the fact that they are far behind the interstellar space travel shown by the Saiyans, Namekians, or the Planetary Trade Organization, along with the inventions of Scouters.

"Science can enhance a person beyond" is a natural and reasonable conclusion, yes. It's the fact that it enhanced them leaps and bounds beyond the strongest mortal in the universe, bar none.

Tao didn't get much a boost from his mechanics to beat Tien. How good were the prior Androids supposed to be? Getting to "beyond Frieza" level is also pretty questionable for a guy who supposedly did this without the help of the very army he's supposed to be avenging.

...Damn it, I wasn't trying to get that much into it.

Edited by fredhot16 on Jan 14th 2022 at 11:23:13 AM

From this moment onwards, I am the King.

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