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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10776: Feb 14th 2015 at 10:43:03 PM

I'll be fair. Calling him more of a fuck up is, indeed, unfair on my part. I'd say, he's more of a fuck up in my eyes simply because I hold him to a higher standard of intelligence than I do his father or Vegeta. It's not that he's worse in any regard, it's that he's not as much better as he should be.

Being Goku's son doesn't automatically pass down Goku's mantle of Earth's protector, yeah, but it's not like it's some kind of company Gohan can decide to just sell or something. Someone has to do it, and the best suited to do it is himself. Ultimately, Goku's own actions lose relevancy in the face of Gohan being the most powerful person in the world and logically the one who should defend it because of it.

From our perspective, of course it's Goku's decision to stay dead. But from Gohan's, does it look the same way? Or does it look like his father is now dead forever because of his screw up?

Gohan's not doing the exact same thing he did with Cell, but he's not doing what experience should've taught him to do, either.

Goku and Vegeta are genii when it comes to combat, yeah. As in, they pick up techniques a lot faster than others and grow stronger at a much faster rate than most. That doesn't mean they're smart people, which they are not. Gohan is. He is supposed to be smart. Somewhat naive and innocent, even ignorant of social customs due to isolation, yes, but smart nonetheless.

It's a matter of perspective, it appears. To me, Gohan looks like more of a fuck up, simply because he is supposed to be better than that.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#10777: Feb 14th 2015 at 10:59:40 PM

Well, Gohan was the most powerful person in the world at that point, but that doesn't really mean he now has to give up his life at the age of nine and start training. I've said before it was a mistake, but I don't see any reason why he should think that only he would be handle potential future threats. There's enough people around who are leagues ahead of the rest of the universe. I think in his situation training would have been the best idea, but it ignores Gohan's own wishes, age and the fact that he hasn't had a chance to live his life at all. The chance is always there, but it's slim enough that I don't think it's worth it.

Granted, yes, Gohan would certainly blame himself for that. But I don't think he repeats this mistake again.

Experience wouldn't even need to teach him that. It's simply not efficient fighting, it never has been, and characters do it anyway. It's a necessary evil in story telling, so I don't think it should be used to comment on a character's intelligence. It's basically part of the backdrop.

Goku and Vegeta's combat genius is meant to apply to strategy and in-battle decision making, as well. For example, Piccolo shilled Vegeta as one for his actions in the #19 fight, or the decision to use the Spirit Bomb (ironically, both were incredibly stupid decisions).

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#10778: Feb 14th 2015 at 11:04:45 PM

Wait, how was the Super Spirit Bomb a dumb thing, it worked. Saying that was dumb is dumb in and of itself to me.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#10779: Feb 14th 2015 at 11:06:22 PM

It's dumb because it neverworked, and it only worked this time because plot said so. Goku and Vegeta went with something extremely unreliable, instead of just letting Gohan or Gotenks murder him.

My various fanfics.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#10780: Feb 14th 2015 at 11:08:44 PM

The fact that it worked doesn't vilify it.

They had better options and they chose not to take them.

The Spirit Bomb plan required Vegeta to stall long enough against an opponent way out of his league and he couldn't. If it wasn't for Satan and Fat Boo, one of which was still inside Boo at the time, that plan wouldn't have worked.

And then, he just assumed the people of Earth would willingly donate their energy to the bomb. Satan to the rescue again.

After that, he hadn't realized that Goku wasn't in the condition to even handle the bomb, and they nearly lost because of that. It's a good thing they didn't waste the final wish like Vegeta told them to do.

It's a horrible plan when they have the Dragon Balls available and could just wish back Gohan to fight, or wish for a set of Potara, or whatever the fuck else.

It only worked because of multiple things Vegeta didn't plan for. That's not smart, that's luck.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10781: Feb 14th 2015 at 11:14:31 PM

I'm not asking Gohan to give up on his life and dreams. I'm asking him to not forsake Earth to pursue them exclusively. Because Gohan basically left the world in Vegeta's hands following the Cell Saga, and that's a terrible pair of hands to leave the world to.

Your mileage may vary on whether the mistake is repeated or not, depending on what you consider his mistake to be, and depending on what Gohan might consider his mistake to be. For instance, does he consider his mistake playing with Cell, or does he consider his mistake to be refusing to fight until after his friends and father had been tortured for a while and the very first absolutely permanent death of a good guy (AKA Android 16)?

Maybe Gohan considers his mistake to be having the power to do something, and yet not doing it as soon as he can. Don't do today what you can leave for tomorrow, when it might be impossible. But then again, I'm speculating. I don't know what he might consider to be his mistake, and thus whether or not he is repeating it, since what he considers his mistake to be changes what lesson he'd learn.

Ultimately, what I consider his mistake was having the power to do something and not doing it. Gohan had the power to make a difference, but chose not to because of sudden pacifism that had never prevented him from laying the smackdown on someone before.

Goku and Vegeta's combat genius applies to how they fight, but so does their ego and bloodlust, which impairs them. They know what the best course of action is, but they won't take it because they are blinded by their natures.

I'm halfway convinced that the real reason Goku didn't just pop over to Earth with Instant Transmission to pick Gohan up to finish off Kid Buu is less "he didn't think of it" and more "he wanted to finish that fight himself".

edited 14th Feb '15 11:16:56 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#10782: Feb 14th 2015 at 11:15:52 PM

Except the Gohan thing, wouldn't have happened, because neither Goku or Vegeta would give up the chance to fight. Goku maybe, but Vegeta wouldn't, and he would fight to the end. Really, neither of them would have gone for that. Also, the only reasons the Spirit Bomb never worked is because it either lost a lot of its energy before being used, like what happened against Vegeta, or Goku just miscalculated how much energy was needed to kill someone, like what happened with Frieza, neither of which actually happened here. Plus, Mark got to be awesome for once and prove himself as the Saviour of the Earth.

edited 14th Feb '15 11:17:55 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#10783: Feb 14th 2015 at 11:18:54 PM

[up] Yeah that does nothing to excuse it, at all. Goku and Vegeta being idiots doesn't make Vegeta not an idiot for planning the Spirit Bomb.

And Goku actually did want to bring Gohan and Gotenks, once Vegeta suggested using the balls to revive everyone. He just didn't think of it earlier because dumb, and Vegeta shot it down because dumb.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#10784: Feb 14th 2015 at 11:24:30 PM

Again, it isn't dumb to me, and that's all that matters at this point. And nothing you say is going to change this view.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10785: Feb 14th 2015 at 11:24:41 PM

And if Goku really wanted to do it, he could do it. It's not like Vegeta could stop him.

It might be dumb... and it is... but it's in character.

edited 14th Feb '15 11:25:01 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#10786: Feb 15th 2015 at 12:08:22 AM

[up][up] Congrats on being absurdly close-minded? What is even the point of discussing in that case?

[up] It doesn't mean Goku didn't want to do it, he just liked Vegeta's idea.

edited 15th Feb '15 12:09:26 AM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#10787: Feb 15th 2015 at 5:50:45 AM

Man, I had forgotten how depressing The History Of Trunks was; it really flip everything you know about DBZ on it's head.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10788: Feb 15th 2015 at 8:12:25 AM

That's the point, Saiga.

[up]Things would be a lot less bleak there if someone had remembered to tell Trunks to contact King Kai so he can lead Bulma on a spaceship to New Namek so she can wish back Piccolo/Kami so they have the Dragonballs again which can then be used to ress mass amounts of people.

edited 15th Feb '15 8:44:36 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#10789: Feb 15th 2015 at 9:52:01 AM

Gohan is without a doubt the most incompetent character in DBZ. Each and every time he take the center stage he creates a mess that Goku has to clean up for him.

No wonder he eventually just gave up on him and decided to make Uub the next defender of Earth.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#10790: Feb 15th 2015 at 11:16:42 AM

[up][up]I'm pretty sure none of the Z fighters had their bodies after they were killed.

[up]why is it that you hold Gohan's mistakes over his head, but not everyone else's. Sounds a little unfair.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10791: Feb 15th 2015 at 11:59:26 AM

Which doesn't make any difference. What's your point?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#10792: Feb 15th 2015 at 12:18:08 PM

The original reason Goku kept his body was explicitly said to be a special case on account of saiyans. Same with the other fighters. Special cases are that, special.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10793: Feb 15th 2015 at 12:45:53 PM

... and? Still has no bearing on anything.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#10794: Feb 15th 2015 at 12:56:01 PM

On Gohan's incompetence: I think we're judging him a bit too harshly. EVERYONE has moments of idiocy and screw up in battles. EVERY character. Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Goten and Trunks... and since Gohan doesn't have the same fighting instincts, you can't really judge him by the same standards as Goku. He screwed up in the Cell Games? Dude, he was 9.

And the whole Buu debacle I just consider lazy writing to get him out of the way. I feel like his character would be better if Fat Buu DID kill him like everyone thought. It's better than having him hyped up, only to be completely useless.

edited 15th Feb '15 1:08:09 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#10795: Feb 15th 2015 at 6:09:53 PM

I have to ask, but in a hypothetical Dragon Ball vs Mortal Kombat game, who would be Goku's rival in it: Liu Kang or Raiden?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#10796: Feb 15th 2015 at 6:17:06 PM

Neither. "Rival" implies the other person would have a snowball's chance in Hell.

My various fanfics.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#10797: Feb 15th 2015 at 6:34:22 PM

You could say the same thing about the Mortal Kombat vs DC game, and yet it still happened.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#10798: Feb 15th 2015 at 6:40:34 PM

They at least had something resembling an out with magic.

My various fanfics.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10799: Feb 15th 2015 at 6:40:39 PM

I'd say Liu Kang, if only because he's more of a martial artist archetype than Raiden is. But if you're gonna make that crossover, that's not the match up I'm looking forward to. Bring me Johnny Cage VS Mr. Satan!

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#10800: Feb 15th 2015 at 6:41:27 PM

Oh, Johnny would beat the shit out of Hercule.

My various fanfics.

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