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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10751: Feb 12th 2015 at 10:36:59 PM

Furthermore, Saiyan genes have nothing that makes them evil. Blood Knight and Spirited Competitor inclined, yes, but nothing about them makes them Always Chaotic Evil. They're not Uchiha.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#10753: Feb 13th 2015 at 7:35:38 AM

[up][up][up]Genes have also nothing to do with the ability to pull off a Kamehameha or a Makako-Sappo-Potamus, but in Dragon Ball, they do, apparently. Even Cell himself attributes some of his personality traits to the specific people whose genes he's made of, so for all intents and purposes, Cell is a mishmash of all those fighters, and not merely on a biological level.

So, Cell wouldn't easily play ball with the heroes, it was already hard enough for Vegeta to do it, and impossible for Freeza. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, though, just not during the time of the Cell saga.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#10754: Feb 13th 2015 at 8:48:58 AM

Cell would totally play ball if he had a mutual goal. Same with Frieza. That's how plenty of the villains in the protagonist group came around; Goku is the patron saint of the Enemy Mine.

Yamcha signed on because he wanted to steal the Dragon Balls from Goku and Bulma. Piccolo wouldn't have an Earth to take over if the Saiyans destroyed it. Vegeta allied with Krillin and Gohan out of necessity when he realized he was no match for the Ginyu Force or Frieza.

Even Frieza might have come around if, like Vegeta, he found himself in a position where his continued existence depends on defeating an enemy against which even his mighty ego cannot contend. Majin Buu, for instance. But he never did, because those circumstances never arose. Like I said before, what villains live to become protagonists and what villains die and are left behind is a matter of circumstance more than anything else; how evil the villain is has never been a factor for Piccolo, Vegeta, or Buu.

So the question is: could such circumstances arise that Cell would not wish to annihilate everything on the planet Earth? To answer that question, one must answer the question, what are his goals? What does he desire? What objective does he wish to achieve?

And that's a hard question to answer for Perfect Cell because his only villainous motivation was to become Perfect, and he did that. By the time we're even discussing Perfect Cell, he has already won. He did what he set out to do, his mission in life is finished, there's nothing left for him to achieve. The closest thing to a motivation he has once becoming Perfect is one he invents for himself, and then only after witnessing Vegeta's impressive power-up: "I want to fight you some more and see how much stronger you guys can get!"

Of all the villains ever to appear in the entire series, Perfect Cell's improvised is the easiest to align with the protagonists. He doesn't need to feel so threatened that it would shatter his ego, he doesn't need an enemy so powerful he could never compare to it, he doesn't even need an under-handed scheme that require him to pretend to play ball. All he needs to do to become a protagonist is not make arbitrary threats to blow up the Earth for no reason at all like he does.

edited 13th Feb '15 8:51:22 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#10755: Feb 13th 2015 at 10:41:05 AM

So, in a scenario in which Gero was still alive and Cell managed to become perfect do you think he would have listened to him or would he have turned against him?

As far as I remember Cell referred to Gero as "sama" and spoke of him with reverence, but he never actually meet the man and I wonder if put in a situation where the two were alive would he default to Gero's plans (which for the most part would probably entail things Cell would do anyway) or would the novelty eventually wear off.

edited 13th Feb '15 10:42:24 AM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10756: Feb 13th 2015 at 11:29:05 AM

I'm pretty sure Gero would've pissed Cell off in very little time. Cell has an ego, and Dr. Gero is a moron.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#10757: Feb 13th 2015 at 11:46:14 AM

You two have me suddenly picturing the scene where Goku persuades Majin Buu to stop obeying Babidi as Cell and Dr. Gero.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#10758: Feb 13th 2015 at 1:57:02 PM

I still don't get how audience effects like moving seats can be considered "4D". That's completely silly misuse.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#10759: Feb 13th 2015 at 2:42:01 PM

To be fair, it's the closest we're gonna get, since true 4D would kind of involve us utterly raping our perception of reality and destroying all of our minds.

edited 13th Feb '15 2:42:14 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#10760: Feb 13th 2015 at 3:27:08 PM

I know, but just call it "3D with special effects" or something, don't reappropriate a term that means something else entirely.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#10761: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:25:28 PM

4D actually refers to 4-player co-op don't you know?

True facts of life, being able to multi-form into 4 copies of yourself because who's the best person you can trust other than yourself or a door mat.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10763: Feb 13th 2015 at 9:48:09 PM

The only person you can trust is me. You can trust that I will betray you.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#10764: Feb 14th 2015 at 8:27:14 AM

Ya know, I'm proud of Dimps. They're making a new Street Fighter and a new Dissidia Final Fantasy, but they still had time to make an awesome DBZ game. (with a new story no less!)

mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#10765: Feb 14th 2015 at 6:44:06 PM

@Arrow: The tickets would probably be stupid pricey but hot damn, Dragon Ball in 4D sounds like a hell of an experience.

edited 14th Feb '15 6:44:48 PM by mrsunshinesprinkles

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10766: Feb 14th 2015 at 7:53:11 PM

Depends. The only real way to simulate the effects correctly would be if somebody threw a flashbang into the room every time a ki blast explodes.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#10767: Feb 14th 2015 at 8:16:27 PM

Yes...you are the best and simultaneously the worst person you can trust which is why Goku makes so many bad decisions for every good one.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10768: Feb 14th 2015 at 8:37:00 PM

To be fair, at least Goku realizes just how shitty of a hero he can be and has at least been trying to groom a replacement. It's not his fault that everyone who could be his replacement is an even worse fuck up than he is.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#10769: Feb 14th 2015 at 8:38:53 PM

Nobody is a worse fuck up than Goku. They just don't have Goku's "luck" (plot).

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10770: Feb 14th 2015 at 8:49:17 PM

I'm pretty sure the biggest fuck up is still Gohan. I mean, guy could've saved the world from Cell well before Cell killed anyone (of importance), and he didn't. Then he could've stopped the Buu saga early by beating Dabura, but he hadn't trained properly and didn't win a fight that he should've been able to win easily. Then he could've killed Super Buu easily as Ultimate Gohan, but he got cocky and paid for it.

I will not count 'not stomping Kid Buu' against him on the basis that it's a fuck up of Goku's more than it is Gohan's. I mean, guy could've popped over by Earth at any time after Gohan was ressed to pick him up while Vegeta was distracting Kid Buu.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#10771: Feb 14th 2015 at 9:22:30 PM

The thing is, what Gohan did with Cell, Goku did with Freeza. It's just that Goku got rewarded by this by both winning and setting up the only situation in which he'd learning Instant Transmission, while Gohan's mistakes had more appropriate consequences.

Not training for seven years isn't a fuck up. It's a mistake, but Gohan has no way of knowing what would happen later down the track and he has his own life. It's a very understandable mistake. Really, Goku fucked up just as much in stopping Vegeta from interfering with that fight, and then holding back against Vegeta.

Against Boo, he didn't fuck around as much in the manga. He did smack Boo up and taunt him, but this is no different to every single fight in Dragon Ball ever. Boo then blew himself up, and Gohan needed to protect his friends/brother, and wait for him to resurface. Then he was being cautious of Boo, and warned Goten/Trunks not to fuse. He didn't know what Boo was planning, so he couldn't have known that he could have avoided that by attacking Boo head on. He just knew Boo was being too confident and was being careful.

Just from the Boo arc, Goku screwed around in Babidi's ship, held back against Vegeta, deliberately left Boo alive to try and force the kids to fight him, lied to everybody, chose to save Satan over Gohan (actually called out on this one, though), crushed the Potara, screwed up in Super Saiyan 3 and left out Gohan/Gotenks of the final battle.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10772: Feb 14th 2015 at 9:36:14 PM

It's kind of hard to argue he isn't worse when he is repeating the same mistakes his father made, even though he knows that they are mistakes.

Goku left Gohan as the protector of Earth. He couldn't know a threat of Cell's level would show up, but he couldn't have thought that not training would've been okay. Not when he's supposed to be really smart. Not when he knows that being careless can result in deadly consequences.

You're right, Goku gets away with it because the plot saves him. That explains why he never learns, he never really has to pay for his mistakes.

But Gohan does. Gohan does have to pay for both his and even Goku's own mistakes. When it comes down to it, it's logical why Goku never learns, the plot always saves his bacon even when he's doing his darnedest to burn it. But Gohan also failing to learn from his own mistakes is a little less forgivable for that very same reason.

That's ultimately why I think he's more of a fuckup. He's supposed to be smarter, he's punished for his mistakes, and yet he doesn't learn, either.

For the record, Gohan couldn't have possibly known that Buu could absorb Gotenks, and he couldn't know that if he just waited 5 minutes, Gotenks would defuse and Buu would be back to a manageable level, which explains why he didn't stall during that fight. However, Gohan should know that screwing around with his opponents and toying with his proverbial food ends up getting the people he loves killed, as it happened with Cell. So he should know better than to smack Buu around and taunt him.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#10773: Feb 14th 2015 at 9:44:42 PM

That's not hard at all. Because that'd make them the same. It's not like Goku isn't fully aware of how stupid it is, and yet he keeps doing it. Gohan at least is new to the whole thing and doesn't have Goku's experience.

Nope, Goku outright told him if he beat Cell it would all be over and he can have a peaceful life. So Gohan did exactly that.

Nah, that doesn't really add up. Because in-universe Goku does get punished, it's just from a storytelling perspective he gets rewarded and other characters get fucked by the consequences. He doesn't like other characters getting shafted or hurt, but "oh boohoo I don't like being the winner of everything" isn't a punishment from a storytelling perspective. So his fuck ups have backfired of them, he's been shown to understand the consequences and still do the same thing in the future.

Gohan doesn't repeat his mistakes, at least not as much as Goku. The only arguable repeat is with Boo, but even then he wasn't deliberately drawing things out. They're always different kinds of mistake.

Again, smacking around Boo for a few seconds and taunting him isn't anything as severe as his bungling with Cell, not is it any worse than every other fight ever. They all do that, his is only considered a mistake because Boo lived long enough to manage something completely unexpected. That's bullshit. Either every fight is a fuck up for not immediately going for the kill with no talking or pauses, or you can't count this one.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#10774: Feb 14th 2015 at 9:57:05 PM

Except they're not supposed to be the same. Gohan is supposed to be smarter.

A 'peaceful life' doesn't mean he won't ever be called to defend Earth in his father's stead. It's not likely it will, but it might happen, and it's not the sort of thing you want to be caught flat footed for. Goku is gone and Gohan is his eldest son, therefore his heir. The torch was passed.

Goku might not like other characters getting the shaft or hurt or anything of the sort, but when it comes down to it, the messes his stupidity causes are never permanent. They can always be fixed. By contrast, the one mess Gohan caused does leave permanent consequences. Sure, they ended up being undone, but it took seven years for that to be so.

It's true that Gohan repeats his mistakes less than Goku does, but I blame that on making fewer mistakes than Goku does... Gohan does consistently repeat the mistake of being a pacifist in a series in which punching your problems to death is the go to solution, though, [lol]

By the by, I've already explained why I can tolerate the others screwing around with their prey while I take offense with Ultimate Gohan. Hell, I don't even hold playing with Cell against Gohan, because everyone makes mistakes sometimes. What I say is that Gohan knows that a cornered opponent can still pull a fast one. The only course of action I'd honestly be satisfied with him performing in his fight against Buu is showing up, knocking Buu around until Buu is stunned or dazed for a moment, getting below him and then either blasting him all the way to the sun with a Kamehameha or putting as much power as he can behind a blast and utterly obliterating Buu.

Even if it doesn't work, I can still say that he's not repeating the mistake of not doing his best to end the fight as quickly as possible.

Like I said, I can expect this from other characters. From Vegeta, whose ego is so big it's unsurprising that he doesn't learn. From Goku, who's never had to deal with a permanent mess he can't fix as a result of his stupidity, I can expect him to be hard headed when it comes to this kind of lesson. But I expect better from Gohan. And yes, this does mean that I hold Gohan to a higher standard than I do the others, if only because he really should be superior to them in this regard.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#10775: Feb 14th 2015 at 10:23:06 PM

But that doesn't make him more of a fuck up. If they make same mistakes, same level of fuck up. Also, Gohan's academically smart. Goku's supposed to be a "combat genius" and so when it comes to combat decisions, if anything he should be held to a higher standard.

That's crap. Being Goku's son doesn't mean Gohan is automatically supposed to continue what he does. Besides, Goku never really had any official role, he just happened to be the reason most of the characters were part of the group and mostly the one to save the day. But he didn't pass shit down to Gohan. He forced Gohan into a plan he didn't tell him about, then asked him for a huge one-time favour.

They're not permanent if they come undone. Also, that wasn't a result of Gohan's actions, but Goku's. It's only because of Goku's decision that he stayed dead. Gohan's mistake was no more permanent than any of Goku's - everyone who died as a result of that came back to life.

Gohan's not doing the same thing he did with Cell, so there's nothing to learn from here. It's just the same knowledge that every character should possess, but doesn't. This is purely for the sake of entertainment.

Holding Gohan to a higher standard is one thing, but you can't say he's more of a fuck up from that. Simply wrong. Both Goku and Vegeta are supposedly combat geniuses, so again, they should have the higher standard in any combat situation.

edited 14th Feb '15 10:23:58 PM by Saiga


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