If you take away the unnecessary genocide from his actions, you could totally have him be yet another unintentionally good android, if only because his sole motivation is his programming to get perfect, which doesn't necessarily include "Killing Goku" or "Destroying Earth" or anything of that sort.
The Androids are not particularly evil either, but they do have the goal of killing Goku, so Cell could totally get away with killing them without looking like a villain.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariWow.
You guys really have me believing Cell could have been a good guy if things were different.
Funny how that works out.
One Strip! One Strip!Honestly, the only character in the core series I consider 100% totally irredeemable is Frieza.
In a series where the physical embodiment of evil underwent a Heel–Face Turn out of love, the Devil made a stand against Majin Buu, and even the most mindless force of evil and destruction in the universe became heroic in two separate ways, it's hard to make a case that any character could never, under any circumstances, have changed. Nearly the entire protagonist cast is comprised of former villains in various states of reform.
Except Frieza.
edited 10th Feb '15 9:41:27 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I often wonder how much Toriyama planned things out (he did say he wanted Goku to be the hero, and apparently, 19 and 20 were going to be the original Androids).
I feel there are many things he could have done if he'd thought about it a bit more.
I still wish the Android saga had come before Raditz arrived. As a Terrestrial born threat, it would have made more sense. Plus, we'd already had Tao pai pai to hint at it in a way.
But what we got is what we got.
One Strip! One Strip!Well, we know he was writing by the seat of his pants even more than usual for that arc, constantly making changes to it to appease his friendHEY! .
Like, in addition to 19 and 20 being the original androids, Cell was introduced because his friend still thought the Androids weren't threatening enough, and there were more scenes planned with Semi-Perfect Cell that got scrapped because his friend thought Semi-Perfect Cell was ass-ugly.
This narrative pileup of retcons trying to "fix" the arc is the main reason why Dr. Gero's motivations and character devolved from "Angry guy seeking revenge" to "Batshit nonsense man" via Fridge Logic. There are only so many times you can play the, "And then he had ANOTHER secret android he didn't or couldn't use, more powerful than the last!' card before it stops making sense, and that number is zero.
Recent information about Android 16 doesn't help, either.
GERO: I have completed the most powerful android ever! Android 16, even stronger than any android I will ever make in the future! But he's basically a security blanket because he resembles my son, and I don't want him to risk destruction. Now to install the Kill Goku protocol and the self-destruct bomb in this Android who must never engage in battle, then seal him away and never build an Android of equivalent strength who isn't my son.
Heartwarming discovery? Absolutely. Makes Dr. Gero an even more confusing mess of a character? Completely.
edited 10th Feb '15 10:02:34 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I basically ignore all the out-of-manga information anyway. I mean, does it make any difference to know Babidi is Bibidi's clone instead of son? Does it make any difference to know that 17 and 18 were once named Lapis and Lazuli?
The way things were in the series, even though Toriyama was writing by the seat of his pants, weren't particularly nonsensical.
I mean, it would have made less sense if Dr. Gero didn't have some kind of backup plan in case the androids failed.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariScenario A: Cell is just as narcissistic and sinister as he is in canon. This is a bad thing because you are giving a very cruel, homicidal creature even greater power.
Scenario B: Cell isn't contrived, as you say, and could in fact be talked down. The Androids are Cyborgs, and are effectively innocent people who Gero turned into firmware upgrades for Cell. By allowing Cell to do as he pelases on the wager "he'll be really strong and friendly and won't go mad with power", you're costing two people their lives.
In the Bad Future, sure, 17 and 18 probably deserve it, but in the Main Timeline, no.
edited 10th Feb '15 11:00:05 AM by FOFD
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Yeah, but stronger, better Androids should be the A plan, not the B plan.
Not using 17 and 18 makes sense because they're uncontrollable - although it raises questions as to why they still exist. Gero should have either "dismantled" them or fixed them before putting his plans into motion. He had full control of the timing of his attack, so there's no good reason why he's keeping them in stasis by the time he initiates the attack.
Meanwhile, Android 16 is completely unjustified. The reveal that Gero never sent him out because he was modeled after his son answers that question...but only by raising so many further questions.
Two people trying to kill them, yeah. You know who else is a violent bastard and dead now? Nappa. The Ginyu Force. Commander Red. Etc. Why shed tears if 17 and 18 die? In fact, killing 17 and 18 was the A plan for stopping Cell, so it's pretty firmly established that nobody is concerned with their wellbeing.
As for the A scenario, like I said, nobody's trying to keep Vegeta from getting stronger, and he has an established history of sadistically murdering people for lulz. "Here, Vegeta, you go into the Room of Spirit and Time first and become the most powerful character in the cast for a time. Goku, our only hope of stopping you if you come out of the Room and decide to murder all of us, will enter second."
Nobody has a problem with powering up a rotten, evil bastard as long as it's our rotten, evil bastard.
edited 10th Feb '15 11:04:24 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Didn't Gero fear 16 in the original, anyway? He was supposed to be even harder to control than 17 and 18. Which'd make sense, as the pacifistic 16 would not agree with any of Dr. Gero's plans or ideas.
Anyhow, 'stronger' androids was always Plan A. There were reasons why he didn't throw his strongest weapons at the Z fighters from the get go. (17 and 18 couldn't be controlled, 16 was apparently even worse and Cell wasn't completed and wouldn't be for several years).
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariThat is an incredibly ruthless way of looking at it, and I'm a little disturbed that you had a lengthier response to A than B.
If we're being purely Doylist and ignoring Krillin, then yes, I suppose no one directly cares about the Androids' wellbeing.
They might be stupid enough to let Vegeta live with them, but no one other than Vegeta was going, "Yeah, let Cell absorb the Androids! This can only turn out well!"
It'd be an interesting For Want Of A Nail, but with the information they had at the time, none of the Z-Fighters would've banked on Cell pulling a Heel–Face Turn, or gambled the lives of the Androids like that. Maybe, when they first appeared, had Cell not gone on a killing spree, had he approached the Z-Fighters peacefully, maybe they'd be like, "Oh, so Cell can both find them and neutralize them, okay sure, let's help him!"
But Cell wasn't that smart.
edited 10th Feb '15 11:19:34 AM by FOFD
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Like I said, the explanations raise more questions than they answer. 16 being pacifistic and 17/18 being rebellious are problems with their personalities. Those are easy to resolve. 16 is full machine, so just reprogram him not to be a pacifist. Why did Gero program him to be a pacifist in the first place?
The answer, interviews tell us, is because Gero didn't want him fighting, and that's great and all, but why not build another Android like 16 but without being Gero's son and program that one not to be a pacifist?
As for 17/18, their problem is that they're rebellious teenagers. That seems like an issue with the organic component, not the cybernetics. Put the infinite energy device in someone more reliable, someone like, say, Dr. Gero. But, of course, Dr. Gero making himself into an android is crazy talk.
Not to mention, if Gero can't have a 16-quality or 17/18 power android ready by the time he attacks, why not just attack at a later date? Gero is under no deadline. The only deadline is the one Trunks gave us for when he's going to attack, and Gero has complete control over that. He'll attack when he's good and ready, so why not take his time and get good and ready? Hell, after making himself an android, he doesn't even have to worry about dying of old age.
On two separate occasions, Gero scrapped an android design in favor of making weaker, shittier models for no good reason. The Doylist reason for this is because the repeated retcons rendered his entire character behavior into utter nonsense, but in-universe, Gero's character is a mess and no amount of after-the-fact explanation is going to fix it, as the 16 interview reveal demonstrates.
A lot of villains have died in this series. When 17 and 18 were still just murderous bastards trying to kill Goku for lulz, nobody would have shed a tear if they died. Killing them was the plan from the moment Trunks arrived to warn everyone, and remained the plan up to the moment Krillin failed to destroy 18. The only thing that changed was that instead of killing them to end the Androids' threat to the world, the goalpost moved to killing them to prevent Cell from absorbing them.
I'm surprised you're even arguing this. With the sole exception of Krillin's crush, protecting the androids was not a priority for anyone at any point in the entire Cell Saga. The protagonists' role in the conflict between Cell and the Androids was to try and kill the Androids before Cell can absorb them and achieve his Perfect Form, and it was critically important to ensure that Cell does not achieve his Perfect Form because....
That's where the conflict is lacking. We're given a spooky introduction to Cell and told he's killing people to increase his power in order to achieve his objective of killing the arc's villains to distract from the fact that he's a) attempting to do the heroes' job for them, and b) we're deliberately powering up characters who are guilty of far more evil actions than Cell in our effort to stop him from being strong. "Cell intends to become powerful! In response to this, let's make Vegeta as strong as we can!"
Cell was given creepiness as a substitute for sincere villainous intent. "Achieve my Perfect Form" is not, in and of itself, a bad thing, especially when the requirements are that he kills two murderous bastards attempting to kill our heroes, and after it's accomplished, his character is left with nowhere to go because he never intended to DO anything with his power; he wanted it just to have it.
edited 10th Feb '15 11:56:11 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.It is kinda funny how death is so cheap that being a mass-murdering, genocidal monster is a forgivable crime.
The only characters I couldn't really come up with SOME way to justify a Heel–Face Turn for are Frieza, and if you count the forms as separate entities, Super Buu. In a way it's sorta fitting that Fat Buu and Kid Buu both become heroic in a way, while Super Buu gets slapped with cessation of existence.
You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!Gero thought 19/20 were strong enough already. He didn't watch the trip to Namek and therefore thought he was still dealing with roughly saiyan saga level power levels.
Doesn't explain why he still made lesser quality androids but hey.
edited 10th Feb '15 1:26:02 PM by Spirit
#IceBearForPresidentYes, it is explained that he couldn't control the Infinite Energy types, but again, that raises further questions. Why not just build infinite energy into someone else? He builds himself into an Android later; why not build himself into an infinite energy android? He could control himself pretty well.
At some point, Dr. Gero went, "Well, time to convert myself into an android. I should make absolutely sure to make myself into the shittiest design I have ever constructed!"
As for motivations, Pilaf wanted to conquer the world. His goal was the same as Piccolo Daimao's. He was a hilariously ineffectual moron, but he totally had villainous intent.
I agree that Commander Red had the most harmless motivation of any character in the entire franchise and I love that about him.
Vegeta and Frieza totally had villainous goals: while the desire to attain immortality itself can be benign, both Vegeta and Frieza wanted not just to be immortal, but to be an immortal something. Vegeta and Frieza were both genocidal conquerors, and immortality would only supplement their acts of genocide and conquest. Their reason for coming into conflict with the protagonists are purposes that, in a vacuum, could be benign, but their Character Motivations absolutely weren't.
Cell, by contrast, was nothing before he wanted to become Perfect. He was borne into the world fully-formed and desiring perfection. Whereas immortality was a means to an end for Vegeta and Frieza, Cell's Perfect Form was the end. Everything he did was for the sole purpose of achieving Perfection, including the people he ate to become strong enough to take on 17 and 18.
Once Cell hits that Perfect Form, his villainy falls apart because he had no goals or objectives beyond this and never has. Cell's entire purpose for existing is complete. So...now what? "Um...be awesome, I guess?" So he challenges everyone to a fight. But because he's supposed to be the villain, he has to throw in, "Or I'll blow up the world!" because there needs to be a justification for why he's not just, like, Goku and Vegeta's new sparring partner or something. At this point in his history, he could have gone any direction and become anyone. He settled on mindless Stupid Evil for the sake of the plot.
edited 10th Feb '15 1:57:35 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Shittiest design? No, 19 was his best design. Because it worked. You're making a huge assumption that Gero's brain can control any Android body, what 17 says seems to contradict this.
Pilaf's goal was the same as the King who united the world, and no-one treats the world kingdom as a bad thing. You said yourself it actually wouldn't be bad.
Piccolo's goal was to make humanity suffer, out of his hatred for them.
You completely missed that Cell delights in pain and fear. Obviously, leaving out his villainous traits will make him look less villainous.
My point is the opposite actually: that Cell needed to have arbitrary cruelty added into his character because nothing about his motivations justify the huge panic over the threat of Cell becoming Perfect. Frieza and Vegeta had a long time to become terrible people by choice, while Majin Buu's motivation is the annihilation of life. Cell is the odd man out - the Commander Red of the post-Raditz villains - because he lacks either a reason to be a bastard or a motivation that makes him dangerous. He must be fought simply because he is the villain and must be fought.
- PILAF: I want to rule the world!
- RED: I want to be tall!
- PICCOLO: I want to rule the world, but as a competent threat!
- RADITZ: I want to kill all humans and force my brother to come with us in our campaign of genocide.
- VEGETA: I want to become an immortal genocidal conqueror!
- FRIEZA: I want to become an even MORE immortal genocidal conqueror!
- CELL: I want to be tough like you guys.
- BUU: KILL EVERYTHING THAT IS
That's my point. The only thing villainous about Cell is the random cruelty - and even then, Vegeta easily trumps him in that category. If he didn't insist on destroying the planet for lulz in the Cell Games arc, Cell would just be remembered as the guy who destroyed the Androids and saved the world, then had a bunch of awesome fights with the protagonists.
edited 10th Feb '15 2:08:17 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Fair enough. I apologize for calling it random.
Yes, he was a monster before destroying the Earth entered the picture. Cell was firmly established as a villain when he was introduced killing people and absorbing them to strengthen himself, as part of his villainous plan of destroying the current villains of the story and becoming Perfect. Stopping him from killing 17 and 18 isn't much of a goal given that the heroes are trying to do the same, and stopping him from becoming Perfect is also a stupid goal because that's just Cell becoming strong; as I said, nobody's objecting to Vegeta's training.
The objective at this point, instead, is stopping his means, not his goal: he's a villain because he's killing and absorbing civilians. That's a reasonable complaint. But instead of putting the focus here, the characters treat it like Perfection is the real problem; it becomes a race to destroy 17 and 18 before Cell can, even though the only problem with him is that he's killing people, and he has no reason to keep doing that once he's completed that objective.
And sure enough, once he becomes Perfect, his tail even withers up into his back; Perfect Cell doesn't look like he even COULD absorb people if he wanted to. Cell wins. He becomes Perfect, thus completing his ultimate objective. But...that objective is fairly benign and Cell is the bad guy, so now he needs to come up with something evil to do in order to keep being the bad guy and set up the final battle against him.
The Cell Games is the result and even that would have been fairly benign if Cell wasn't threatening the annihilation of Earth; at its core, the Cell Games is Cell going, "Well, now that I'm Perfect, we should all fight a bunch and have awesome battles," which is all the protagonists ever really want anyway.
Cell is cruel and sadistic, but so is Vegeta. So was Piccolo before Gohan happened to him. So was Tien before Goku's love of fighting turned him. Most of Goku's friends either are bastards, or were once upon a time. At the point where Cell achieves Perfection, the one thing about him that is truly heinous has actually been excised from his character - the people-eating. He no longer has any reason to threaten the world, but he does anyway because the plot must go on.
EDIT: It's like if Commander Red succeeded in making his wish to become tall, and then upon his success went, "...huh. Well, that was cool. I like being tall. Kinda expected to get my ass kicked though. Hmm...Goku! I have planted a bomb in South City! Come fight me or I will destroy the city! Bring your friends."
edited 10th Feb '15 2:34:28 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Really, let's be honest here, there's literally no reason other than Gero being a moron to program Cell as a sociopathic nutjob.
When it comes down to it, the real villain of the Cell Saga was Gero, just... mostly... how do you spell that word used when someone is given something after death? Posthumously? Well, that.
Point is, Cell could very well have turned around with a little creativity and if he hadn't been made pointlessly cruel. I mean, even if Cell was weaker than the androids, all he'd have to do is approach the Z fighters and either flat out lie to them (by telling them he was a measure Gero invented in order to get rid of the rebellious androids when he noticed they were more likely to kill him than Goku) or just tell them that unlike the androids, he isn't programmed with the sole mission of killing Goku and he doesn't really care about anything other than becoming perfect and then having awesome fights. If he said as much, the Z fighters would help him. Even if he's ugly as sin and looks like the bad guy. They kind of don't put too much stock into looks.
edited 10th Feb '15 2:45:40 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariI mean, lets think on this:
Would you want a guy who gets stronger by eating people, who was built by an enemy who created numerous killing machines to WT Fpwn you and your friends, and wants to become even more powerful by eating your current two enemies, who are already able to dance on your face with such ease that they consider tracking you down to be no more than a game, would you want him to get more powerful?
Also consider that 17 and 18 don't really kill anyone but Gero (despite Trunk's warnings), while they track Cell by the massacres he leaves in his wake, and who would you want as your big threat.
One Strip! One Strip!

I could believe it. They needed to make Imperfect Cell creepy and unsettling and have him killing random people to power himself up along the way because without that element, "Time-traveling warrior from the future who came back to destroy the Androids" is just a more effective version of Trunks.
"Oh no, but by destroying the Androids, he'll get stronger!" Why is that a bad thing? Not like anyone cares about keeping Vegeta from powering up. Nothing about the character's goals or motivation is villainous, so they had to throw arbitrary genocide into his execution of those goals to make him a threat.
And even then, wish back his victims and you're left with no harm, no foul. If Cell wasn't threatening to destroy the Earth at the end of the Cell Games, he'd be the Antihero of the Arc, similar to Vegeta on Namek - who, I'll note, was also killing civilians for even less reason than Cell.
edited 10th Feb '15 9:21:10 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.