At the power levels we're talking about, 1.25 times stronger can mean a world of difference.
Like, even when Goku was on Namek, the difference between 400x and 500x is 300,000,000. That's two and a half Friezas! His power has only increased substantially since then, and his Super Saiyan levels increase exponentially by virtue of being multipliers in the first place.
Saiga's estimated Goku to be around 80,000,000 post-Buu, in keeping with statements about Goku's base being weaker than Frieza. Based on this estimate, the difference between 400x and 500x would be a factor of 8 billion. Adding 8 billion to someone's power level can easily turn the tables.
edited 18th Dec '14 9:49:09 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Yes, but Gojira was saying it doesn't fit GT itself, which requires much larger gaps than that because of ridiculous inflation.
Ignoring the actual events of GT I'd say 500x is best (that's what I went with for my Super Saiyan 4 redesign) because it's also close enough to Super Saiyan 3 in power that you can show how it's more energy efficient. It doesn't just win because of the 1.25x increase in power.
But for GT, Baby in his weakest form absolutely destroys SS3 Goku, then goes on to transform twice more. And then the guidebooks imply Baby's 3 forms are Super Saiyan 1 - 3. So Super Saiyan 1 Baby beat up SS3 Goku, and Super Oozaru Goku beat up Super Saiyan 3 Baby.
edited 18th Dec '14 11:52:02 PM by Saiga
Granted, it's possible that Baby's artificial Tuffle blood might make the forms weaker, so the power differences between the forms might be smaller. Vegeta was also never capable of using Super Saiyan 3 as well, so saying that Tuffle blood somehow unlocked it makes almost no sense.
Granted, wasn't it also said somewhere that Super Vegetto was possibly stronger than even a Super Saiyan 4?
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!That doesn't make a whole lot of sense and honestly Vegeta not having Super Saiyan 3 in GT didn't make much sense either. It just happened because they barely put any focus on him until he was upgraded to fusion fodder.
There is one anime related guidebook but I'd discount it due all the evidence against it in GT.
Isn't that the same guidebook that said the Super Saiyan 1-3 thing for Baby Vegeta?
Also, it's possible both the Golden Great Ape and Super Saiyan 4 forms have the same multiplier, it's just that one is more focused and controllable. After-all, transformation to the latter from the former happens automatically once rational thought is regained; Super Saiyan 4 might just be a controllable version of Golden Great Ape.
edited 19th Dec '14 12:40:10 AM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!Nope. GT Perfect Files said that about Baby, which are shockingly pretty accurate guides (they're more accurate to the manga than GT itself). The Vegetto thing was said in a GT TV comic, which isn't really a guide.
I think it's pretty much impossible for Super Oozaru to be as strong as Super Saiyan 4, or Baby would have completely destroyed Goku since he can control the form.
edited 19th Dec '14 12:45:34 AM by Saiga
Except Baby was winning that fight once he got Golden Great Ape; he only lost through a combination of him slowly loosing control for real, Majuub blasting him apart from the inside, and Goku getting a power boost from Trunks, Pan, Gohan, and Goten, which also helped revitalize him.
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!Actually, when did the Majuub thing start, the first fight with Great Ape Baby or the second one?
Also, it's possible for Super Saiyan 4 to be stronger than the Golden Great Ape form, but still have the same multiplier. Namely, the ki and size of the latter becoming more condensed; both Great Ape forms are massive and their quantity of ki would reflect that, Super Saiyan 4 however condenses that ki into a smaller shape, which would give it more punch, as well as allow one to use their ki more effectively and efficiently.
Actually, do the Great Ape forms even increase your speed, or does it just stay the same?
edited 19th Dec '14 1:19:21 AM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!How, the mass alone, and the pot-belly of the GT apes, should weigh them down so they're slower. How is it that changing into a giant 30 meter tall monkey makes you faster, but getting bigger muscles slows you done significantly?
edited 19th Dec '14 1:37:02 AM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!Because it's not the huge muscles that hold them back, the form just sucks. Grade II increases muscles and yet still increases speed.
With the amount of weight they can comfortably lift, it'd be absolutely nonsensical if their own weight slowed them down at any point.
edited 19th Dec '14 1:46:01 AM by Saiga
Except it's flat out stated by, well everyone, that the muscle mass is the reason for the decreased speed.
Also, did you not see the size of Trunks' muscles in that state? His shoulder muscles were larger than his head.
edited 19th Dec '14 2:03:35 AM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!Only the first one giving speed makes sense though; the Great Ape forms should be slower due to their greater mass, and the pot-belly, and Ultra Super Saiyan is slower due to the disproportional muscle mass to the size of the body and the muscle friction.
edited 19th Dec '14 2:20:20 AM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!Well obviously not for the Great Ape, their bodies are actually sized right for their muscles, it's the mass in general that is the problem. Look at any real world creature, and you would see that anything that got close to that in size were either incredibly slow, or aquatic creatures. Great Apes would never be capable of moving anywhere near as fast as they do in our world, unless they were aquatic animals.
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!Look, here's the thing, Great Ape gives you incredibly large muscles, which are ultimately meaningless since you can just use ki to increase your strength, and increases your size in proportion to the muscle growth. Grades 2 and 3 work on a similar principle. In real life, everyone has a limit to how much muscle mass they can gain before they either a) slow their bodies down trying to move, or b) tear themselves apart from the inside. Grade 2 increases your muscles to the limit, so they aren't any ill-effects on your body; Grade 3 however goes beyond that limit, and does not increase your size to adjust to that. Broly actually becomes a genius here in a way, since his size increases along with his muscle mass, so that previously stated limit increases as well.
edited 19th Dec '14 2:59:50 AM by Ssj3Gojira
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

There's the big exception of the Japanese mute u that pops up a lot, but for the most part, yeah, they're the same.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari