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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9626: Dec 18th 2014 at 6:06:36 PM

There's the big exception of the Japanese mute u that pops up a lot, but for the most part, yeah, they're the same.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#9627: Dec 18th 2014 at 9:47:48 PM

Except that would make the Golden Great Ape form only 1.25 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3, which is nowhere near enough to explain Goku knocking around Baby's second strongest form when his Super Saiyan 3 state was barely handing him.

At the power levels we're talking about, 1.25 times stronger can mean a world of difference.

Like, even when Goku was on Namek, the difference between 400x and 500x is 300,000,000. That's two and a half Friezas! His power has only increased substantially since then, and his Super Saiyan levels increase exponentially by virtue of being multipliers in the first place.

Saiga's estimated Goku to be around 80,000,000 post-Buu, in keeping with statements about Goku's base being weaker than Frieza. Based on this estimate, the difference between 400x and 500x would be a factor of 8 billion. Adding 8 billion to someone's power level can easily turn the tables.

edited 18th Dec '14 9:49:09 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9628: Dec 18th 2014 at 11:51:54 PM

Yes, but Gojira was saying it doesn't fit GT itself, which requires much larger gaps than that because of ridiculous inflation.

Ignoring the actual events of GT I'd say 500x is best (that's what I went with for my Super Saiyan 4 redesign) because it's also close enough to Super Saiyan 3 in power that you can show how it's more energy efficient. It doesn't just win because of the 1.25x increase in power.

But for GT, Baby in his weakest form absolutely destroys SS3 Goku, then goes on to transform twice more. And then the guidebooks imply Baby's 3 forms are Super Saiyan 1 - 3. So Super Saiyan 1 Baby beat up SS3 Goku, and Super Oozaru Goku beat up Super Saiyan 3 Baby.

edited 18th Dec '14 11:52:02 PM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9629: Dec 19th 2014 at 12:23:07 AM

Granted, it's possible that Baby's artificial Tuffle blood might make the forms weaker, so the power differences between the forms might be smaller. Vegeta was also never capable of using Super Saiyan 3 as well, so saying that Tuffle blood somehow unlocked it makes almost no sense.

Granted, wasn't it also said somewhere that Super Vegetto was possibly stronger than even a Super Saiyan 4?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9630: Dec 19th 2014 at 12:29:39 AM

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense and honestly Vegeta not having Super Saiyan 3 in GT didn't make much sense either. It just happened because they barely put any focus on him until he was upgraded to fusion fodder.

There is one anime related guidebook but I'd discount it due all the evidence against it in GT.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9631: Dec 19th 2014 at 12:34:35 AM

Isn't that the same guidebook that said the Super Saiyan 1-3 thing for Baby Vegeta?

Also, it's possible both the Golden Great Ape and Super Saiyan 4 forms have the same multiplier, it's just that one is more focused and controllable. After-all, transformation to the latter from the former happens automatically once rational thought is regained; Super Saiyan 4 might just be a controllable version of Golden Great Ape.

edited 19th Dec '14 12:40:10 AM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9632: Dec 19th 2014 at 12:44:58 AM

Nope. GT Perfect Files said that about Baby, which are shockingly pretty accurate guides (they're more accurate to the manga than GT itself). The Vegetto thing was said in a GT TV comic, which isn't really a guide.

I think it's pretty much impossible for Super Oozaru to be as strong as Super Saiyan 4, or Baby would have completely destroyed Goku since he can control the form.

edited 19th Dec '14 12:45:34 AM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9633: Dec 19th 2014 at 12:50:19 AM

Except Baby was winning that fight once he got Golden Great Ape; he only lost through a combination of him slowly loosing control for real, Majuub blasting him apart from the inside, and Goku getting a power boost from Trunks, Pan, Gohan, and Goten, which also helped revitalize him.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9634: Dec 19th 2014 at 12:53:22 AM

Not enough to make up for the massive difference in power there would be if Super Oozaru was as strong as Super Saiyan 4. The difference between Baby and Goku was insane. He wouldn't be "winning" the fight, he'd win immediately.

They were mostly even and even scored a double KO.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9635: Dec 19th 2014 at 1:04:16 AM

Actually, when did the Majuub thing start, the first fight with Great Ape Baby or the second one?

Also, it's possible for Super Saiyan 4 to be stronger than the Golden Great Ape form, but still have the same multiplier. Namely, the ki and size of the latter becoming more condensed; both Great Ape forms are massive and their quantity of ki would reflect that, Super Saiyan 4 however condenses that ki into a smaller shape, which would give it more punch, as well as allow one to use their ki more effectively and efficiently.

Actually, do the Great Ape forms even increase your speed, or does it just stay the same?

edited 19th Dec '14 1:19:21 AM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9636: Dec 19th 2014 at 1:29:51 AM

But ki size is strength. Those who learn to control their ki better just end up getting more of it.

There has never been a case where two people have read the same battle power but one is much stronger than the other.

Yeah, they increase speed.

edited 19th Dec '14 1:31:47 AM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9637: Dec 19th 2014 at 1:36:40 AM

How, the mass alone, and the pot-belly of the GT apes, should weigh them down so they're slower. How is it that changing into a giant 30 meter tall monkey makes you faster, but getting bigger muscles slows you done significantly?

edited 19th Dec '14 1:37:02 AM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9638: Dec 19th 2014 at 1:45:45 AM

Because it's not the huge muscles that hold them back, the form just sucks. Grade II increases muscles and yet still increases speed.

With the amount of weight they can comfortably lift, it'd be absolutely nonsensical if their own weight slowed them down at any point.

edited 19th Dec '14 1:46:01 AM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9639: Dec 19th 2014 at 1:53:38 AM

Except it's flat out stated by, well everyone, that the muscle mass is the reason for the decreased speed.

Also, did you not see the size of Trunks' muscles in that state? His shoulder muscles were larger than his head.

edited 19th Dec '14 2:03:35 AM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9640: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:09:54 AM

Goku's the only one who even says it kills speed, and he just says the form gives him great strength and kills his speed. Cell just says it only gives pure power.

Grade II increases speed and Oozaru increases speed.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9641: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:17:35 AM

Only the first one giving speed makes sense though; the Great Ape forms should be slower due to their greater mass, and the pot-belly, and Ultra Super Saiyan is slower due to the disproportional muscle mass to the size of the body and the muscle friction.

Also, meet Gosura.

edited 19th Dec '14 2:20:20 AM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9642: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:20:42 AM

But Grade II is still greater Mass.

Again, it's a 10 x power upgrade. Combined with how much weight they can easily lift, there's no reason it should slow them down.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9643: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:24:30 AM

Except the mass gained in Grade 2 is nowhere near as large as the mass gained in Grade 3.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9644: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:30:15 AM

The difference isn't that big at all.

Grade II

Grade III

Yes, there's an obvious difference, but saying the muscles are what slow them down is pretty silly when Grade II increases speed and there's no chance those muscles weigh more than 40 tonnes.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9645: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:31:38 AM

Muscle friction would still be a factor, since you're trying to fit muscles that big in a body too small for them.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9646: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:32:46 AM

Really not nothing to do with the weight though, and Oozaru wouldn't have that problem due to their proportions being different. They don't have overly large muscles.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9647: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:43:04 AM

Well obviously not for the Great Ape, their bodies are actually sized right for their muscles, it's the mass in general that is the problem. Look at any real world creature, and you would see that anything that got close to that in size were either incredibly slow, or aquatic creatures. Great Apes would never be capable of moving anywhere near as fast as they do in our world, unless they were aquatic animals.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9648: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:44:14 AM

So, in other words, Grade III has nothing to do with your argument for Oozaru.

And it's a bad idea to use it with real life. Dragon Ball doesn't give a damn how real life does things.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#9649: Dec 19th 2014 at 2:59:25 AM

Look, here's the thing, Great Ape gives you incredibly large muscles, which are ultimately meaningless since you can just use ki to increase your strength, and increases your size in proportion to the muscle growth. Grades 2 and 3 work on a similar principle. In real life, everyone has a limit to how much muscle mass they can gain before they either a) slow their bodies down trying to move, or b) tear themselves apart from the inside. Grade 2 increases your muscles to the limit, so they aren't any ill-effects on your body; Grade 3 however goes beyond that limit, and does not increase your size to adjust to that. Broly actually becomes a genius here in a way, since his size increases along with his muscle mass, so that previously stated limit increases as well.

edited 19th Dec '14 2:59:50 AM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9650: Dec 19th 2014 at 3:05:19 AM

Which basically means you're arguing that Oozaru shouldn't have drawbacks.


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