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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9401: Dec 3rd 2014 at 7:01:40 PM

That one was practically an established fact by Battle of Z.

Whis pretty much acknowledged that Goku had the potential to surpass Beerus. I'd say, give him a couple of years to train to get the God Powerup under control...

Hell, if they were smarter than a shovel, they'd get Vegeta the powerup too so that Goku has someone to fight evenly against, thereby getting them both to increase in power even faster than either would solo.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9402: Dec 3rd 2014 at 7:09:34 PM

Since when are the Z Warriors smart?

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9403: Dec 3rd 2014 at 7:10:12 PM

Hence why I said "If they were smarter than a shovel".

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#9404: Dec 3rd 2014 at 11:47:16 PM

Since JJBA was mentioned a while ago, I gotta ask:

What do ya guys think the power-level of Gold Experience Requiem is and how does it stack up to Goku, Beerus and the like?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#9406: Dec 4th 2014 at 12:19:36 AM

Boom, even gods can't escape it! tongue

Crinias from The Bleak Academy Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Mu
#9407: Dec 4th 2014 at 6:20:28 AM

Requiem's ability is clearly more of a narrative power than one that can be measured in objective strength. It's a simple "I win, no contest" in any sort of direct confrontation. I imagine on an indirect confrontation Giorno would lose, though. Requiem protects him, and not anyone else as far as we know, so blowing up the Earth or something would work, I suppose.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9408: Dec 4th 2014 at 6:37:14 AM

That depends.

Does he need to breathe?

'Cause Goku can survive in vacuum long enough to IT somewhere with an atmosphere. So long as someone can be carried out into space, or so long as they can't prevent the planet from being destroyed under them...

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#9409: Dec 4th 2014 at 6:48:50 AM

It could just negate the attack that destroys the planet. Nullification of cause and effect is probably the most OP ability in fiction.

Crinias from The Bleak Academy Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Mu
#9410: Dec 4th 2014 at 6:56:17 AM

Well let's see, Giorno needs to breathe, but because his whole deal is creating and manipulating life, he could probably create some sort of lifeform that would allow him to breathe if he found himself in outer space. Probably.

But no, carrying him or trying to touch him to teleport him somewhere else would probably cause Goku to lose, period. Narratively speaking, Goku might be able to survive it or something, but only because he's the protagonist of his series and it'd be cheap to just kill him off without any chances to resist.

[up] That's debatable. GER clearly didn't negate Made In Heaven, so he probably can't negate attacks with immense reach, or which are world-affecting.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#9411: Dec 4th 2014 at 7:04:14 AM

[up]We've not been to Jojolion!Italy yet so we can't know that a confused Giorno isn't still the boss like a certain mangaka. :D GER can "change" everything it knows is going on and is immune to time related abilities. It could just stop Goku from flying off into space or note that "Hey, I don't like that bright light heading towards the planet so you haven't even started charging yet".

I really wish Araki had expanded on GER's powers in the latest databook.

edited 4th Dec '14 7:07:57 AM by LordofLore

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9412: Dec 4th 2014 at 7:07:20 AM

Huh.

Makes you wonder how that guy could ever lose, then.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Crinias from The Bleak Academy Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Mu
#9413: Dec 4th 2014 at 7:09:19 AM

[up][up]Well of course we can't know, because we haven't seen it, but for all we know Giorno was in Disneyland during Stone Ocean. We should make judgments based on what we know it can do, and I don't think he would be able to stop the planet's destruction if he didn't know it was happening.

edited 4th Dec '14 7:12:54 AM by Crinias

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#9414: Dec 4th 2014 at 7:10:02 AM

If his Stand wasn't self-aware it would be easy to sneak attack him but sadly it can think and act on its own.

Edit: This is why bringing GER!Giorno into crossover fights is a bad idea. We don't know enough about it aside from what it says. We can't know if it has a range cap since the only fight it is in takes place in close quarters, it takes out the Big Bad too fast to really give us insight into how it works and then it isn't seen again aside from the writer acting coy about what happened with him later.

edited 4th Dec '14 7:16:24 AM by LordofLore

Crinias from The Bleak Academy Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Mu
#9415: Dec 4th 2014 at 7:14:20 AM

[up]x3 The thing here is that Giorno gains that ability at the climax of his story, so it's essentially a glorious 11th-Hour Superpower. He only gets to use it only once before his story ends. Before he obtains it, all fights involving him are very close. And even then, he tends to support his group from the background, not from the front, so he doesn't hog the screentime, giving everyone else more time to shine. In fact, one might say the others take up too much attention.

edited 4th Dec '14 7:14:42 AM by Crinias

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(•̀⤙•́)
#9416: Dec 4th 2014 at 7:14:23 AM

Goku growing much faster than everyone else is pretty much part and parcel to his character.

Honestly, it's more impressive that Vegeta and - for a time - Piccolo managed to keep up than it is that Goku surpassed them.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#9417: Dec 4th 2014 at 8:24:52 AM

Well Vegeta constantly destroys his body to keep up and Piccolo needed to keep fusing with Nameks to keep up.

Plus ya know, those Main character privileges.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Beaver Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#9418: Dec 4th 2014 at 8:50:23 AM

So is SS 4 not considered canon anymore?

Is this a Jo Jo reference?
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9419: Dec 4th 2014 at 9:12:13 AM

It was never considered canon to begin with.

Even though Toriyama, IIRC, had a hand in designing it.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Raven666 I'd totally hug you if that was something I did from Everywhere and Nowhere. I'm watching you. Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
I'd totally hug you if that was something I did
#9420: Dec 4th 2014 at 9:35:02 AM

Off topic - I think - but why does everyone seem to dislike GT? I've only seen like the first two episodes and have only re-watched up to just after the fight with 19 so i'm not up to GT yet and don't feel like skipping the rest of the Androids Saga through the Kid Buu Saga. I've seen people say it's non-canon so is that why it's disliked or is it just not on the same level as Dragonball and Z?

What started out as a pleasant afternoon of drugs and surgery has not gone as planned.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9421: Dec 4th 2014 at 10:43:16 AM

Aw... shit, here we go.

I don't dislike it. I acknowledge it had it's bad points:

  • VEGETA: And I... admire YOUR ABILITY TO DIE!
    • Vegeta growing a mustache and mellowing out, which led to:
  • Bra being a shallow teenager
  • Kid Goku whose power is significantly less than what it was being able to backhand an energy blast from Gohan like it was nothing.
  • Goku's tail coming back (arguable, A Wizard Did It)
  • That scene people love to blow up when Goku gets amazed over Omega blowing up a city, even though Nappa did that a long time ago.
  • Super Saiyan 4
  • Super 17
  • The long and mostly filler arc before the Baby Saga started.
  • The concept of Black Shenron/the Black Star Balls.
  • Pan not becoming a Super Saiyan.
    • Pan, in general.
  • Piccolo
  • Frieza and Cell
  • The ending: with Goku leaving ambiguously and becoming Asian Jesus... I think.

But I will also defend that it had some awesome ideas and scenes, that it's bad points are mired by things that were previously done in Z, and that the tonal shift was due to it being reminiscent of Dragon Ball. I really liked it, because when DBZ went off I felt like a piece of me had gone missing, and then GT came on and continued the adventure, so Nostalgia Fuel. Yet other fans also tend to exaggerate it's bad points out of pure spite. It has bad points and good points. There's plenty of stuff I see now, rewatching Z, that I loved when I was a kid, that I hate now - like Gotenks, fusion, and the reason that Kid Buu even came into the picture.

I'll address the above points in order.

-breath-

  • Vegeta has bad lines that have become MEMETIC. He is a Memetic Badass. "Sad for you!" "OVER 9000!" Admire your ability to die is not the worst.
    • Vegeta mellowing out and growing accustomed to Earth is the pinnacle of his character development. And there's a rather excellent scene that I can never find on Youtube from the fight with Omega Shenron, that shows just how devoted Vegeta is to protecting Earth. It's really touching, and it shows how far he's come from just being Goku's rival.
  • Bra being a shallow teenager. What else was Bra supposed to be? She's a half-human, half-Saiyan. Trunks and Gohan are too, and they're not inclined to train and fight strong opponents like their fathers. She's a teenage girl from a rich family. They don't all grow up to become warriors, hell, look at Gohan and compare him to Future Gohan.
  • Kid Goku's Power Level. I think we could be here all day talking about power level inconsistences, skill gaps, and "hand-outs" that occur throughout Dragon Ball. But this sort of thing rarely bothers me in Dragonball. What bothers me is when Goku has the chance to finish something but doesn't, Forgot About His Powers is much worse than the occasional narrative fuck-up.
  • Goku's Tail. Has it ever been said that a Saiyan's tail can't be brought back by magical forces that the Saiyans have never encountered - the Kais are wizards in the plot. They can plausibly add anything to the Saiyan mythos/biology because they've been around for a long time (Beerus, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan 4).
    • Hell, I'm pretty sure Goku's tail came back without explanation in Dragonball during the World Tournament, and then didn't come back for whatever reason. Vegeta and Gohan never got theirs back either. Turles actually STOMPED Gohan's tail back out in one film. So to complain that Goku's tail was brought back by bullshit when the tails themselves have already been subject to bullshit doesn't subtract from GT, it's just continuing bullshit.

edited 4th Dec '14 11:41:54 AM by FOFD

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9422: Dec 4th 2014 at 10:53:47 AM

(continued)

  • Omega blowing up a city. Okay fine. It was a poor script. Let's move on. Jeez, how many times have the Z-Fighters said something to the effect of, "This power, I've never felt anything like it! It's unreal!" Seriously, take a drink every time Piccolo/Tien/Krillin/Vegeta says that. Poor scripting is nothing new.
  • Super Saiyan 4. I like Super Saiyan 4. It brings the Saiyan concept full circle. Saiyans turn into giant apes, but this was the weakest form used by the main characters. Their hair extends more and more with each transformation, until finally, it turns wild in SSJ 4, and then they get fur to go along with it, their personalities and appearance becomes more bestial, like a fusion of Super Saiyan and the Oozaru form.
  • Super 17. I skimmed this arc, and while I agree that Myuu and Gero working together to build an Android that instantly surpasses the heroes sounds like bullshit - the concept of a human scientist building androids that instantly surpass Super Saiyans in strength ITSELF WAS BULLSHIT. And some of you called the entire CELL/ANDROID SAGA BULLSHIT. I didn't call it bullshit, I like how humans get some significance through Gero, who took alien DNA and made these incredibly powerful cyborgs. Gero working with a recent villain to build a new android that suddenly surpasses the heroes? It works. What they should have done was elaborate on 17's life post-Cell. I don't even remember how Myuu's 17 made contact with Gero's 17, or why he was being mind-controlled. But you know what, this was a fight where the Z-Fighters didn't just train or unlock new power - 17, IIRC, actually let himself be defeated. Hurray for the show not using the same, tired battle strategy.
  • The filler arc. The Western syndication actually edited this down, so that the show started as a Flash Forward to the Myuu/Baby arc. I think this was smart, and to this day, I still haven't watched everything that happened leading up to the Baby arc. This just wasn't that bad for me. But then again, I watched Endless Eight with a smile on my face, whereas others were reduced to tears.
  • Black Star Balls. Fine, this breaks the established rules of the series. When were these balls created, how were they created, why do they affect people stronger than Kami, if Kami made them, why are they still active even though Kami "died"? It fails as a plot device.
    • However, the concept of negative energy being stored inside the balls is both awesome, and foreshadowed by what Elder Kai says in the anime about misuing the balls, and it also provides a degree of consequence to using the wish-granting Plot Coupon to fix everything. One major criticism of Dragonball is that the titular objects render death meaningless and destroy all tension.
    • The dragons were also interesting villains (particularly Nova Shenron) and an awesome Call-Back - come on, the initial wishes of the series turn out to be antagonists themselves. That's cool.
  • Pan not being a Super Saiyan. I wasn't bothered by this. There was a scene that indicated she was close, when she got pissed off while fighting the Sigma Force. While a female Super Saiyan is certainly requested, it's not GT's fault for not introducing one - years later, and Xenoverse/Online are the only two iterations of the series to feature them.
  • Pan being annoying. Highly subjective. Keeping Goku away from the action, being a nosy, overconfident teenager, sure. But other then that, I didn't find her annoying. Give me some memorable, annoying thing she did.
  • Frieza and Cell in Hell. If Z hadn't already done a filler episode about this team-up, this would've been great. Rather than suffer the fact that Frieza and Cell would be no match for Goku at this point, they had two excuses: A) Goku's power has decreased, AND b) Frieza and Cell are already dead.
    • Albeit, Goku explicitly told Vegeta in the anime that if Kid Buu killed him, he would be gone forever, so this is a bit contradictory. Though that's a bit wonky, since Vegeta was given back his body, and there wasn't any mention of being permanently non-existent when he fought Janemba, whereas Frieza and Cell were in a limbo where Hell literally broke loose and the dead were able to come back to life. Plus the concept of them keeping their bodies anyway is apparently contradictory.
  • Piccolo. Suffered the fate of the rest of the Z-Fighters. Once again, if you're not down with that, then you should have a problem with everything past the Frieza Saga. At least the person he jobbed to was Gohan, and he did serve a use during the Super 17 arc.
  • The Ending. Really, this is the biggest fault. It leaves you scratching your head as a child, and to this day, it's a little melancholic. Goku just leaves with the dragon and abandons his family... because? And then he comes back to see his descendants fighting because...? And he becomes the spiritual avatar of the Four Star Ball.... because?

These are all the bad points I can think of.

edited 4th Dec '14 11:42:14 AM by FOFD

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9423: Dec 4th 2014 at 10:58:37 AM

No. The main problem with GT is that it tried to return to the mood and themes of the early manga. And it did so very, very poorly.

The entire thing up to Baby felt like someone was trying to imitate Early DB but had no idea how to do it.

Also, DB Heroes had female Super Saiyans long before Xenoverse, and IIRC, it had a female Super Saiyan well before DBO too.

edited 4th Dec '14 11:04:06 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9424: Dec 4th 2014 at 11:16:14 AM

[up][up](continued)

Yet, GT also had some great moments and Call-Back's. And let me tell you, you're going to see that term a lot.

  • Goku being turned into a child. Without this, we've have an extremely powerful protagonist, and nobody wants that. I think this was a good way to increase the threat of the antagonists, and it remained as a constant plot device. What bugs me is that I don't remember why they didn't change him back after the Baby Saga. I think it was due to the wish being immune to alteration by anything other than the BS (Bullshit Balls).
  • Seeing the results of Uub's training. Even if he didn't defeat a major villain, you know what, it was pretty badass for Uub to show up. I didn't expect that as a kid, and when I saw him, I let out a huge cheer. Big Damn Heroes moment. It wasn't a Krillinesque rescue either, he actually put up a decent fight.
    • Buu fusing with Uub. Again, unexpected, and an interesting way for Fat Buu to go out. Plus, Forgot About His Powers was subverted hard, he actually uses the Candy Ray, but gets eaten himself. But then, in yet another Call-Back, he manages to attack Baby from the inside, just like Vegito, Goku, and Vegeta did once upon a time.
  • Vegeta's fight with Gohan and Goten. Actually, before that, Gohan and Goten in general. Seeing them live relatively normal lives in spite of the traumatic events in their childhood is pretty heartwarming, and all the more tragic when Baby arrives. I don't know about you, but I was pretty creeped out when Goten first encountered Baby. This also added another layer to the conflict, with Baby possessing the Z-Fighters, Gohan and others having to fight their former allies, being deceived etc.
    • But anyway, the fight between Vegeta, Gohan, and Goten. There's this one moment when Baby tries to gambit Vegeta. Oh you won't fight me Vegeta, if you destroy me, you'll only be harming Goku's kid. Vegeta's response?
    • VEGETA: And WHAT makes you think I have a problem with that?
    • Cue Baby's Oh, Crap! reaction. Classic Vegeta, and perfectly-in-character. Vegeta has a way with making villains piss themselves, he did the same to Frieza, Cell, and Buu.
      • You might call BS on Vegeta holding off Gohan, but so what? Gohan has been studying and living his life for years, and it was previously established in the Buu Saga that he lost a great deal of power by growing up and not constantly training, this isn't unprecedented. In addition to that, Baby didn't have his body for very long, and it's shown with Vegeta that he has to slowly adapt to using Saiyan bodies.
  • The general eerieness with Baby infecting Earth's population sharply reminds me of the Cell Saga, which TFS has ever so kindly reminded me was CREEPY. AS. F'CK. Cell running from city to city, eating people alive and leaving the cities barren. GT recaptured that with even people like Dende and Popo being affected, Pan getting cornered by her family, and the suspense from the heroes being unaware that Baby had arrived before them.
  • Super 17 saga. 17 comes back, there's an emotional moment between him, 18, and Krillin. Krillin dies. 18 and Gero become relevant, for a little while at least. Gero gets double-crossed again. 17 is defeated not because Goku showed up and punched him in the head, but because Goku managed to get through to him and 17 allowed himself to be destroyed. Plus,
    • The scene where Vegeta meets Nappa again. Another sign of how Vegeta's changed. It's almost admirable, he even offers Nappa the chance to leave town rather than be murdered again. It's also a Call-Back to Nappa's first act of destruction.
  • Oceanus Shenron, call it childish, but there's something amusing about the way she admits that she was born from Oolong's wish for panties, yet another nice Call-Back to Dragon Ball.
  • Nova Shenron, yet another example of Goku befriending his enemy. I don't remember what the wish was, but Nova is the only noble dragon and he's the Four-Star Ball, the ball that Goku's coveted throughout the series. There's something very cool, and ironic about that - IIRC, Nova is good because the wish that he represents was actually a selfish one, thus he was formed from "less" negative energy, I suppose. Then he gets taken out by Eis Shenron.
  • Eis Shenron. Motherf'cker BLINDS Goku, and I loved the way Goku finished him with a punch to the guT. The scene is just priceless. And guess what - this carries over into the next fight. Syn Shenron takes full advantage of this.
  • Syn Shenron, abuses Goku's previous injury to no end. It's almost scary seeing how helpless Goku is at first, until he figures out using his other senses to compensate.
    • And then the way that he turns the tables on Syn, when Syn hurls a disc at him and Goku catches the thing.
  • Goku's attachment to the Four-Star Ball. I for one hadn't noticed how prominent that ball was until I watched the fight with Omega, and my sibling walked in and saw Goku holding it. My sibling, who stopped watching Dragonball long before I'd even started, said, "Wow, so he's still after that thing?" And I thought about it. Wow, you're right. Goku does have an attachment to it, doesn't he? It's almost poetic, the way Goku catches the ball and even tells Omega that he won't let him have it.
    • And then, Goku eats the thing. [lol]
  • Vegeta's reaction to Omega preparing to destroy the Earth. That scene was touching. I wish I could find it, but you can feel how shaken up Vegeta is at the prospect of losing another planet/family.
    • And then, in contrast to Vegeta finally admitting that Goku is better than him, Goku passes the torch of "Earth's defender" to Vegeta.

So with all of that said, I don't hate GT like everyone and their mothers do.

edited 4th Dec '14 11:29:02 AM by FOFD

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9425: Dec 4th 2014 at 11:33:05 AM

Say what you will, but they knew how to give Dragon Ball a proper send off.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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