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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#9277: Nov 27th 2014 at 3:26:05 PM

Dude, I get you don't like Goku. But with the way you're ranting it's like you see him as Ron the Death Eater, in the fact that everything bad that has ever happened in Dragon Ball is either directly or indirectly his fault and he is a soulless, heartless, blood hungry asshole that wouldn't even bat an eyelid at the world being destroyed.

Hi, welcome to the conversation. When did I say I don't like Goku? Because from where I'm sitting, I've been arguing a double-edged argument here that Goku is simultaneously more virtuous than one person says and less virtuous than another says. The former person seems to have bowed out of the discussion, though.

Also, a few pages back, we also brought up the point that a Good Character and a Good Person are not the same thing. I assert that Goku is a spectacular character, internally-consistent and well-suited to his role in the story; however, that role is not as a virtuous paragon of selfless heroism, but as one of many selfish, short-sighted people in a comical story about Hilariously Selfish, Short-Sighted People vs. Evil.

To say he lacks empathy is just ridiculous. If he didn't empathy 90% of cast wouldn't exist because if wasn't willing to tolerate those around him or genuinely care for them some degree, he'd beat them or abandon them in their time of need. And he's never done that. He always believe is giving a chance and giving them the benefit of the doubt, even if it goes against other people's judgement. He's incredibly naive to world. Which is a good and bad trait at the same time. Because it mean he doesn't judge people before he seem them or briefly sees them but at same time can result in him make some boneheaded decision.

Goku went through nearly died and went Training from Hell just to revive Upa's dad because he genuinely cared him and felt greatly sorry for the fact his father was killed. And this was a kid he had just met. This carried on to then edn of series whe he left to train Oob and had Mr Satan give Oob village money so his family and villagers could no longer be in poverty. Again, a kid he just met. But he understood his circumstances and went beyond his power to help and make him feel happy. Does that like sound like a person who lack empathy?

Yes, it does. Goku's training of Uub is not without its own degree of enlightened self-interest. Uub exists because Goku wanted to fight Pure Buu again under less apocalyptic circumstances, the same reason why Piccolo and Vegeta continued to exist after Goku defeated them - in both of their cases, he even went out of his way to prevent others from killing them, and openly admits to doing it for selfish reasons. After having mixed results with sparing the likes of Piccolo, Raditz, Vegeta, Freiza twice, and giving a Senzu Bean to Cell, Goku finally got the whole "Let my enemy continue to exist" thing right by requesting Buu be reincarnated into a good person with his power intact.

As I said earlier in the conversation, Goku's selfishness is rooted more in ignorance than in malice. He means well, and when he sees people in need of help, he tries to help them, but his choices are often selfish and short-sighted because Goku has difficulty understanding what it's like to not be Goku. Abusing ancient eldritch forces to bring Upa's dad back to life is a problem Goku is well-suited to helping with because all it required of him was to go punch the same people he's been punching to gather the Dragon Balls he was already well on his way to gathering in the first place. Goku's overly-simplistic problem-solving skills are perfect for that.

Whereas with Uub's village, his solution to "His village needs money? Why don't we just GIVE THEM MONEY!" is a five-year-old's idea of how to correct economic disparity. That's not to say it can't work - that whole sequence is a callback to Nam in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai who was fighting for the same reason as Uub, and who was given better advice on how to help his people from Kame'sennin - just that it's a very simple idea from a very simple man.

Goku has a childlike innocence to him, which is great for Goku - being Goku is probably an amazing and fun-filled life - but it doesn't make for either a well-adjusted adult, or a particularly effective hero. His innocence is both a blessing in the simple sense of right and wrong it gives him, and also a curse in the reckless irresponsibility it gives him as well.

Which is fine because a show about clever, effective heroes battling evil with valor and guile isn't what Dragon Ball was ever about. Nearly all of the protagonists are socially-maladjusted, self-centered people who bumble their way around trying to save the world despite themselves, and make frequent terrible choices along the way.

And even better example of Goku's empathy towards others is his battle with Vegeta in the Majin Boo Arc. If he just transformed into SSJ 3 and stomped Vegeta do you have any idea that would have shattered Vegeta emotionally? Goku knows better than anyone how much Vegeta's values his pride, transforming into SSJ 3 and beating the shit out would have crushed his pride and Goku knew that. He empathized with Vegeta's desperation to feel that sacrificing his soul for a power up to catch up with him was worth it and justified.

I would call that another example of Goku's failure to empathize. Specifically, empathizing with all the people he is knowingly putting in danger by humoring Vegeta's tantrum. Goku is terrible at thinking like a hero. You are absolutely right that Goku, in that scene, did what he could to avoid hurting Vegeta's feelings - and the cost of that was Majin Buu. Every single person on the planet Earth died so that Goku wouldn't have to hurt Vegeta's feelings.

This is what I mean when I say that Goku's prioritization skills are terrible. Vegeta is not the priority here. From the moment Goku heard about the god-killing abomination, not once does he actually take it seriously until it actually awakens and he senses its power. His failure to use his power responsibly - even as the Supreme Kai begs and pleads with him to - leads directly into Majin Buu awakening.

And this is not without precedent, because Goku allowed Dr. Gero to create the Androids too, even with Trunks begging and pleading with him not to. Goku is very loyal to his friends, and on an abstract level he understands that not letting the world be destroyed is a good thing to do, but he frequently demonstrates a complete inability to understand the consequences his choices may have for the world as a whole.

I don't even need to point out the amount of times he willingly sacrifices himself to save the world and not only even not asking for a thank you but actively rejecting the fame that comes with it and instead letting Mr Satan have all the glory so that the human race could believe that one of their own was truly extraordinaire and aspire to be great like him.

But he also doesn't like the media. grin

Goku doesn't so much reject the fame as he does ignore it outright. It's not selflessness that leads him to avoid cameras and press interviews; they're not relevant to his interests. He's been the boy who saved the world since he defeated Piccolo Daimao and then immediately left to go back to what he was doing, because that's the kind of guy Goku is. Fame doesn't help him fight stronger guys or become more powerful himself, so he doesn't care.

And whenever he's not saving the world, he wants the new generation to step up and do it because he doesn't want them to have the luxury of always relying on the old guard to bail them out in a time of crisis. It's never been a case of when Goku doesn't save the save is because he doesn't feel like, it's because he want the youngsters to have experience when comes to saving the world and battling threats. Goku's knows he won't gonna be around forever, so it's better to have a contingency plan in the new generation so you breath easy if the world is in danger and you're too old to fight. It's practically identical to what Master Roshi did. It's Fridge Brilliance when think about it, considering Master Roshi was Goku's teacher.

You are absolutely right that Goku never refrains from saving the world simply because he doesn't feel like it. Here, though, we see Goku's disastrous lack of empathy yet again. Piccolo even calls him out on it: he can't comprehend the idea that his children do not think like Goku. That they have their own wants and desires for what they want to do with their lives. That his son Gohan isn't training with him because he's a hard-edged dedicated martial artist who wants to spend every waking moment getting stronger, but simply because he wants to spend time with his dad.

Goku put Gohan into the ring with Cell without even consulting him on whether he wants to go next, because he just assumed he did. He also just assumed Gohan would immediately bust out that Hidden Power, turn Super Saiyan 2, and wreck Cell because he couldn't understand the idea that Gohan, if anything, values the lives of others too much, to the point that he holds it all back even when faced with his greatest nemesis. It was only the hard work of Cell and Android 16 in getting Gohan emotionally to the point that he could fulfill Goku's expectations of him that salvaged Goku's terrible mistake of failing to empathize with his own child.

This, again, is Goku's childlike innocence at work. He knows how he is, and he just assumes others are that way too. He doesn't make an effort to understand the way other people think or feel about the world.

Yes, Goku loves to fight. He loves a challenge. He loves adventure. Those characteristics will never change. And it can lead to him making some very weird or dumb decisions. And if his family or friends are in danger, whether it's his fault or not, he will apologize for it and try to remedy it.

In summation, Goku may not be a good role model but he sure as hell is a damn good hero.

See, I define a "good hero" as someone whose protection would not leave me feeling very unsafe. Under Goku's watch, every single person on the planet Earth has died at least once, and millions of those people have died twice. The presence of the Dragon Balls is the only reason Goku's planet is not space dust right this very second.

Goku is not a good hero. He just has the benefit of a very forgiving difficulty curve.

edited 27th Nov '14 3:31:57 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9278: Nov 27th 2014 at 3:28:36 PM

I think it's best to just to agree to disagree on this one.

It's going around in circles.

edited 27th Nov '14 5:53:05 PM by HandsomeRob

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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#9279: Nov 27th 2014 at 4:47:53 PM

Which is why I say just use a show of hands. We can't all agree on the same thing all the time.

The majority of the thread people who responded believe Goku is a good hero. However:

See, I define a "good hero" as someone whose protection would not leave me feeling very unsafe. Under Goku's watch, every single person on the planet Earth has died at least once, and millions of those people have died twice. The presence of the Dragon Balls is the only reason Goku's planet is not space dust right this very second. Goku is not a good hero. He just has the benefit of a very forgiving difficulty curve.

By that definition, I'd almost agree.

Though, to be fair, everyone on Earth died the first time after Goku died, and again while he was still dead. Androids killed everyone when Goku was "fated/destined to die/died of natural causes". Buu killed everyone while Goku was back in Heaven. Goku, by all accounts, did his duty in the time he was naturally given - everything else was overtime.

EDIT: In fact, Goku died with Raditz, so that was the first time he died.

Majin Saga Goku, that's when he starts getting obnoxiously pretentious and irresponsible, what with "I wanted to give the boys a chance at saving the world", "I wanted to give Vegeta chance to fight even though the fate of the universe is at stake", "Let me throw the earring rather than use IT!"

That's when I'd call Goku a bad hero, from a Doyle POV, because a number of those thoughtless actions cost several people their lives.

-

To save everyone the carpal tunnel/arthritis: I think Doyle would be justified in calling Goku a terrible hero throughout the course of the story, whereas Watson would be equally justified focusing on the heroic traits he embodies. Goku is neither a good hero or a bad one. To paraphrase Death Battle, he just is.

edited 28th Nov '14 7:08:04 AM by FOFD

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9280: Nov 27th 2014 at 5:53:40 PM

I'll tell you what Goku is:

A Saiyan.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9282: Nov 27th 2014 at 5:55:06 PM
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#9283: Nov 27th 2014 at 9:42:47 PM

I wonder what the Cell Saga would be like with Ginyu Goku...

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9284: Nov 27th 2014 at 10:07:39 PM

Shorter.

Ginyu Goku probably would have tracked down Gero in secret and slapped him around like a bitch.

Because that makes sense.

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BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9285: Nov 27th 2014 at 10:46:14 PM

What's the difference between the Galick Gun and the Final Flash?

I mean, I thought that FF was just a more powerful attack, but Vegeta used the Galick Gun in the Buu saga, so I'm not sure.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9286: Nov 28th 2014 at 2:22:05 AM

Final Flash is a vastly more powerful attack.

It's also a lot more unwieldy. It requires an ass numbingly long charge time to get any real use out of it.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9287: Nov 28th 2014 at 6:02:08 AM

[up][up] He doesn't use it in the manga, and the anime just throws the named techniques anywhere.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#9288: Nov 28th 2014 at 8:08:36 AM

[up] It's kind of funny because 90% of the ki based techniques and martial arts based techniques used in the manga never get named because Toriyama believes Calling Your Attacks is bullshit and stupid (which it is). So the anime had to step in and name the techniques.

edited 28th Nov '14 8:09:07 AM by FireShadow

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9289: Nov 28th 2014 at 1:12:09 PM

Calling Your Attacks only ever works if the users are using magic.

Or if it's just awesome.

I mean, I know I usually don't like the English dub, but Vegeta's scream of FINAL FLASH! in the English dub is just awesome.

Calling Your Attacks can also be screwed up beyond all recognition. The Portuguese version of the first Kamehameha in DBZA is hilarious because of how bad it is.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9290: Nov 28th 2014 at 2:44:45 PM

I find Calling Your Attacks an Acceptable Break from Reality, myself. I think most people know it's not a good idea in an actual fight, Toriyama said you'd probably get your ass kicked for it, but it's really not a huge deal and it can be fun. I think the flavour it adds outweighs the minor problem of "but that isn't the 100% most efficient way to fight". Same with talking is a free action and all that - realistic fights are disgusting and get old fast.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#9291: Nov 28th 2014 at 2:51:05 PM

It really depends on how it's done. Good voicework can make just about anything tolerable.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9292: Nov 28th 2014 at 2:55:09 PM

I'm even talking about manga, without any voices behind it. I assume it's being said in the most epic way possible, the bolding probably helps.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9293: Nov 28th 2014 at 3:35:56 PM

@[1]: But I've seen it used in less than ten seconds. I mean, sure the one against Cell took a very long time, but that wasn't the only time I've seen it.

Unless there's a different yellow beam attack that makes you look like you're groping a pair of invisible boobs.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9294: Nov 28th 2014 at 3:38:19 PM

Sure, but the anime plays really fast and loose with charge times for the attacks. In the Hatchiyack special Vegeta fires one off without any build up or anything. There's no consistency there.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#9295: Nov 28th 2014 at 3:49:11 PM

But aren't the specials non-canon?

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9296: Nov 28th 2014 at 4:06:41 PM

There is no canon. It is what you make of it.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9297: Nov 28th 2014 at 4:07:53 PM

[up][up]

Indeed.

[up][up][up]

A little surprised to see you use a non canon special as an example there Saiga.

That being said, I think there have been examples of characters launching normally powerful attacks that take a few seconds to charge quickly, but those were likely weaker versions.

Either that, or they learned to fully charge them quickly.

[up]

.......You sound like Unoun.

Has there been any brainwashing going on around here, cause if so I want in I'M AGAINST IT.

edited 28th Nov '14 4:09:17 PM by HandsomeRob

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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#9298: Nov 28th 2014 at 4:08:14 PM

Ah Christ, here we go again.

My various fanfics.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#9299: Nov 28th 2014 at 4:09:15 PM

You kind of missed the point of the example. I was talking about how the anime is completely inconsistent with how they use the techniques, and the specials are made from the same people so it's the same logic.

It really doesn't matter if the special doesn't fit into continuity or if you don't consider it canon, same people behind it, same inconsistent portrayal of techniques.

[up][up] see [up][up][up]

edited 28th Nov '14 4:09:59 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#9300: Nov 28th 2014 at 4:09:44 PM

[up]

.....Oh.

I liked my brainwashing theory, but that makes sense too.

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