Neither can I, which is why I've said nothing bad about Gohan.
Like I said before, that's just what this series is. From beginning to end, it's a story about hilariously selfish people battling increasingly severe evil. It's not really Good Versus Evil, but it's not Evil Versus Evil either. It's Selfish Stupid Funny People Versus Evil.
As much as people complain about Vegeta becoming a protagonist despite being selfish, stupid, and evil, he really does fit right in. He's by far the most evil of the protagonists, but nearly everyone is selfish and stupid in their own way. Bulma and Goku are no exception.
edited 26th Nov '14 9:40:54 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.That's because their selfish and stupid traits are the ones relevant to my position in the debate. Do you want me to say some nice things about them?
- Goku's pure love of fighting is often contagious. The benefit of his social awkwardness is that he's 100% honest in how he presents himself, and that easily endears him in the hearts of others, even people who were trying to murder him five minutes ago. He's also devoutly loyal to his friends in his own Goku way.
- Bulma is a brilliant inventor who, while often cowardly, is still often willing to step up to the plate and do what it takes to help her friends. The entire plot could not have happened without her incredible mind and her willingness to go the extra mile for what she wants.
- Yamcha has a really nice bike.
- Krillin, despite being as much of a pervert as Kame'sennin, is also loyal to his friends. He may need a kick in the ass to get his courage revving, but when it's a choice between watching his friends die or endangering himself, Krillin regularly flies off to battle foes that are far beyond his ability, often with positive results.
- Okay, seriously this time, Yamcha - despite being out of his league from day 1 - never hesitates to step in and be part of the group. He has received nowhere near the positive results Krillin's gotten from trying to keep up with the group, and regularly receives only injury and death for his efforts, but he keeps trying nonetheless. He has a strong spirit and will to continue on despite the adversity.
- When he's not perving on teenagers or objectifying women, Kame'sennin is a knowledgeable master with a sense of civic duty so strong he willingly gave his life to seal Piccolo-Daimao in the Mafuba - it didn't work, but through no lack of effort on his part. Kame'sennin taught Goku to always keep training, and to never accept the concept of the impossible; in many ways, he carved Goku into the man he is today.
Etc. etc.
edited 26th Nov '14 9:52:56 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.So you say that bringing up their good points is irrelevant to your argument?
You're basically deliberately ignoring facts which you do know in order to have your argument stand up.
Their virtues are not irrelevant if you're arguing for them being terrible people, because of course they're going to look like shit if you only look at their flaws. In order to call them terrible people, you have to ignore everything that is good about them.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariSo you assert that terrible people are incapable of having good attributes about them at all? That the existence of a single redeemable virtue makes someone cease to be terrible?
I said they're terrible people. I did not say they are all Complete Monsters.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.No. I am asserting that you are ignoring everything that is good about them so your argument can hold water.
To call them terrible people, you have to ignore the sacrifices they are willing to make for a world that will never thank them for it.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariDoes being acknowledged matter that much, in this particular case? Surely, it's gratifying and whatnot, but it's not like their good actions are completely unknown, or like our heroes need or want the attention.
And in the end they're heroes, so they'll save the world regardless of whether they are recognized for it or not, right? Very few heroes save people just because they want to be thanked or acknowledged.
You lie! Yamcha has nothing nice!
Yeah, I know you were joking, but I figured someone was going to say it.
One Strip! One Strip!He had a nice car. Once.
@Crinias
That is actually irrelevant to the matter at hand.
Yes, it's a standard trope that heroes save the world without wanting acknowledgment or even gratitude, but that doesn't change the fact that they do exactly that.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariIn this particular case, the act of saving the world is, itself, its own reward.
And I don't mean that in the sense of "that sense of satisfaction at knowing the world is safe" or something. I mean that what Goku wants most out of saving the world is a kickass fight. He doesn't expect gratitude from the people of the world because gratitude from the world is not what drives him; the experience of fighting the villain is what drives him, and he goes out of his way to make that experience as exciting as possible, even increasing the threat to the world if it will make the fight better.
If the people of the world knew everything Goku and Vegeta have done for them, it's not gratitude they'd be greeted with.
edited 26th Nov '14 1:01:54 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Here we disagree.
It's not just about the fights. While Goku won't stop himself from enjoying the fights, he'd save the world regardless of whether it entailed a good fight or not.
Same as everyone else. They don't save the world for any other reason than that they simply know that it's the right thing to do.
If all that Goku cared about was fighting, he wouldn't stop his fight with Majin Vegeta.
edited 26th Nov '14 2:01:06 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariThe series contradicts that assertion. Remember, Goku chose to stay dead, forgoing any chance of a great fight, just to protect the Earth. Goku passed up fighting Cell to make it so Gohan could. He did the same with Buu. If getting a good fight was his primary motivation, he wouldn't have done so many things that go against getting a good fight.
There's also him using the Warp Kamehameha instead of just blowing up Cell along with the planet. It's not Chaotic Neutral when you go out of your way for the benefit of others and none to yourself. Goku, and most of the characters, are Chaotic Good.
... no. Frieza was a crippled shell of his former self. Goku's intention was to beat him down and crush his pride.
◊ It had nothing to do with wanting a good fight.
◊ If Frieza somehow was strong enough to go back to his life of dictatorship, King Kai just calls up Goku, he IT's there and ends Frieza.
Goku said he was going to use IT to get there instantly
◊ and finish Frieza, but didn't bother when he sensed someone powerful enough to beat Frieza was there. The Earth was never in any danger.
I don't need to because that isn't the point. Disregarding Goku's involvement in the villains' defeat as you did in your post is akin to saying Darth Vader destroyed the Empire on his own just because he was the one to strike the last blow on Palpatine. Goku is merciful, Goku likes a fight, Goku is selfish and Goku is a good guy. You're ignoring 2 of the 4 to make some kind of point. This is the same guy that tried to let Raditz go peacefully despite all the shit he had done.
edited 26th Nov '14 2:33:36 PM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."Same as everyone else. They don't save the world for any other reason than that they simply know that it's the right thing to do.
If all that Goku cared about was fighting, he wouldn't stop his fight with Majin Vegeta.
If Goku cared more about saving the world than fighting, he never would have fought Majin Vegeta in the first place. Majin Vegeta never even would have been born. He would have blown through the ship, took out Babidi, and gone back to the tournament. Goku's choice to make it a game resulted in Majin Vegeta coming into existence, and Goku's choice to fight Majin Vegeta even knowing that it would empower Majin Buu to do so resulted in Majin Buu awakening.
That finally sensing the awakened Majin Buu's power shocked Goku out of his stupid, selfish actions does not justify the latter, nor does it count as a point in his favor. Vegeta was also shocked out of his stupid, selfish actions by the same. The entire fight between Majin Vegeta and the awakening of Majin Buu is a direct result of both Goku and Vegeta's worst personality traits getting the better of them both.
So let's talk about saving the world. Why is the world even in danger in the first place?
- Piccolo Daimao was unsealed by Emperor Pilaf as a consequence of Goku never actually doing anything to end their escalating conflict.
- Raditz came looking for Goku, and Nappa and Vegeta followed because of Piccolo gloating about the Dragon Balls.
- Frieza only ever came to Earth seeking vengeance because - despite killing Krillin - Goku couldn't be arsed to do anything about him either; he tried to quit the field not once but twice because he'd already established he was the stronger fighter, and that was good enough for him, regardless of what Frieza has done or will do.
- I'm not going to give Goku crap for inspiring the creation of the Androids because that was a consequence of a rare instance of Goku doing something that is actually heroic, but I am going to give him crap for sitting on three years' advance notice and choosing to allow the Earth to be threatened because he wants to fight them.
- Majin Buu's awakening is a direct result of Goku's poor prioritization skills.
And that is why he doesn't get credit for saving the world: it was only ever in danger because of Goku's repeated choices to allow the world to be threatened so that he could have a fight. The world would have been a far safer place without Goku in it. Goku himself acknowledged this when he opted to stay dead.
Fanon. At no point does Goku give any indication he has any plans of going back into space to fight Frieza if Frieza keeps doing evil things. In fact, when Frieza does wind up coming to Earth, Goku refrains from ITing there because he's curious about Trunks. Goku places the entire planet Earth in danger to sate his curiosity.
There is no good reason why Goku couldn't have popped down to Earth and neutralized Frieza. Sitting back and watching an unknown fighter do battle with a villain he knows from experience will blow up the planet if he starts losing is completely reckless and irresponsible of Goku. Goku's selfish neglect of the very planet he defends could easily have resulted in the complete annihilation of the planet, as it did with Namek, and as it ultimately does in the Buu Saga with Earth.
Best case scenario, you're right, Goku teleports out and fights Frieza, he doesn't end him. Goku doesn't "end" anybody. He teleports out, fights Frieza, wins the fight, goes "We're cool now, right?" and teleports home, leaving Frieza alone with the people he was terrorizing while wondering to himself if Frieza will get stronger before the next time they have to fight. That's how Goku rolls.
In what way was the Earth never in any danger? Again, look at what Frieza did on Namek when he started losing the fight.
Goku's rationale here is an excuse. What reason does he have not to IT to the planet? "Trunks could handle it," is an excuse to justify inaction; give me one good reason why he should have stayed away, why the situation is better off by Goku sitting back and letting Trunks deal with it?
Yes, this is the same guy that tried to let Raditz go peacefully. He paid for that mistake with his life, and it could have been far worse than that. At a time when the fight was won, Goku allowed it to begin anew, and the entire planet would have suffered for that decision if not for Gohan's Hidden Power.
Which is just more reason why Goku is a poor hero. His lack of empathy coupled with his Saiyan bloodlust gives him utterly skewed priorities that make him incapable of properly judging the threat to the earth posed by the villain, and he frequently makes selfish and/or short-sighted decisions that increase the risk of Earth's destruction. The consequences of this range from "Other people have to step in to save the world in his stead because he can't or won't," to "The complete annihilation of the planet Earth."
You are correct that it was a heroic action of Goku to remain dead. The best decision Goku ever made for the safety and wellbeing of the world was to no longer be present in it.
edited 27th Nov '14 9:43:23 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Dude, I get you don't like Goku. But with the way you're ranting it's like you see him as Ron the Death Eater, in the fact that everything bad that has ever happened in Dragon Ball is either directly or indirectly his fault and he is a soulless, heartless, blood hungry asshole that wouldn't even bat an eyelid at the world being destroyed.
To say he lacks empathy is just ridiculous. If he didn't empathy 90% of cast wouldn't exist because if wasn't willing to tolerate those around him or genuinely care for them some degree, he'd beat them or abandon them in their time of need. And he's never done that. He always believe is giving a chance and giving them the benefit of the doubt, even if it goes against other people's judgement. He's incredibly naive to world. Which is a good and bad trait at the same time. Because it mean he doesn't judge people before he seem them or briefly sees them but at same time can result in him making some boneheaded decisions.
Goku nearly died and went through Training from Hell just to revive Upa's dad because he genuinely cared him and felt greatly sorry for the fact his father was killed. And this was a kid he had just met. This carried on to then end of series when he left to train Oob and had Mr Satan give Oob village money so his family and villagers could no longer be in poverty. Again, a kid he just met. But he understood his circumstances and went beyond his power to help and make him feel happy. Does that like sound like a person who lacks empathy?
And even better example of Goku's empathy towards others is his battle with Vegeta in the Majin Boo Arc. If he just transformed into SSJ 3 and stomped Vegeta do you have any idea how much that would have shattered Vegeta emotionally? Goku knows better than anyone how much Vegeta's values his pride, transforming into SSJ 3 and beating the shit out would have crushed his pride and Goku knew that. He empathized with Vegeta's desperation to feel that sacrificing his soul for a power up to catch up with him was worth it and justified.
I don't even need to point out the amount of times he willingly sacrifices himself to save the world and not only even not asking for a thank you but actively rejecting the fame that comes with it and instead letting Mr Satan have all the glory so that the human race could believe that one of their own was truly extraordinaire and aspire to be great like him.
But he also doesn't like the media.
And whenever he's not saving the world, he wants the new generation to step up and do it because he doesn't want them to have the luxury of always relying on the old guard to bail them out in a time of crisis. It's never been a case of when Goku doesn't save the save is because he doesn't feel like, it's because he want the youngsters to have experience when comes to saving the world and battling threats. Goku's knows he won't gonna be around forever, so it's better to have a contingency plan in the new generation so you breath easy if the world is in danger and you're too old to fight. It's practically identical to what Master Roshi did. It's Fridge Brilliance when think about it, considering Master Roshi was Goku's teacher.
Yes, Goku loves to fight. He loves a challenge. He loves adventure. Those characteristics will never change. And it can lead to him making some very weird or dumb decisions. And if his family or friends are in danger, whether it's his fault or not, he will apologize for it and try to remedy it.
In summation, Goku may not be a good role model but he sure as hell is a damn good hero.
edited 27th Nov '14 2:53:42 PM by FireShadow

Goku is who he is.
I can't call someone who would willingly risk life and limb for the ungrateful masses a terrible person.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari