Plus, goku wasn't an infant in Jaco because he was the same age as in Dragon Ball Minus coming to earth, ie, a toddler.
Watch SymphogearWhere have I said anything about black and white?
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.It seems that anything not immediately obvious will also completely fail to reach you.
Okay, then.
Let's see if I can make it obvious enough.
You don't seem to realize that there is a setting in between "Terrible Person" and "Saint".
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariNo, I realize that. I do not, however, feel that most of the characters in Dragon Ball qualify for "Decent Human Being". The cast of Dragon Ball is not merely flawed. They fall on the "People I enjoy watching but would never in a million years want to invite into my personal life" side of the spectrum.
Goku is an easily manipulated serial molester who grew up to be so obsessed with violence that he regularly gambles the fate of billions of people on his desire for better fights. He's a world savior who prioritizes the challenge of the fight above the safety of the world, like a twisted version of Honor Before Reason. Fun Before Reason, I guess. He IS a hero by virtue of his deeds, but he's a selfish hero who regularly thinks of himself before others.
Bulma is an entitled rich girl who manipulated, abused, and even enslaved others in her quest to usurp unknowable godlike power to get a boyfriend, because she could not for the life of her think of a way that a pretty, brilliant, immensely wealthy girl could be considered attractive to the male gender. She has Vegeta-level arrogance combined with a callous disregard for the wellbeing of others, up to and including her closest friends. She's brave only when she has a meatshield to do her fighting for her, boy-crazy to the point of hitting on people who are trying to murder her, and just generally abrasive even in casual conversation.
Yamcha is a bandit who attempted to murder children to usurp the same unknowable godlike power to cure his shyness, and ultimately traded highway robbery for adultery as his hobby. He moved in with Bulma, had an incredibly unpleasant relationship with her that was awful by all accounts - there is almost never a time in Dragon Ball where Bulma is happy in her relationship with Yamcha, which makes sense given that when he's not cheating on her, he's dumping her to go train at Kame House with his friends for months if not years at a time.
It goes on like this. They're all great characters and a thrill to watch, but none of them are people I would want to go have a few drinks with. We complain in this thread about how the protagonists' selfish, stupid actions regularly make conflicts worse in the later arcs, but the thing about those complaints is that they are entirely justified because the protagonists are selfish, stupid people. They've always been selfish, stupid people. From the very first arc in which they accidentally stumbled upon Emperor Pilaf - himself a selfish, stupid person, the self-proclaimed ruler of a single castle and two subjects - and managed to save the world from being conquered by Oolong making a wish for panties.
From the beginning, the protagonists of Dragon Ball have been a group of hilariously selfish, socially-unpleasant people bumbling around and occasionally saving the world. This does not change in later arcs with the addition of such characters as Piccolo, Vegeta, Mr. Satan, etc. It begins with Bulma shooting Goku in the head and it ends with the entire world triumphantly chanting "SATAN! SATAN! SATAN!" because, again, that is the kind of series this is.
edited 25th Nov '14 9:48:34 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Again: these characters transcend merely being flawed and go straight into comedic sociopathy.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Only if you completely and utterly ignore everything that is good about them.
So yes, they are flawed people.
They can be selfish or stupid. Or selfish and stupid at once.
Want to know something funny? So can you. So can I. So can everyone.
I suppose under your logic everyone is a terrible person, huh?
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariGoku's irresponsible, but will do what's the best for everyone more often than not. That's a decent person. Yes he has selfish tendencies, but so do most people.
Really, if we're talking terrible (non-villain) people, the characters in their Dragonball stages are the only ones that fit. By the time Z rolls around everyone has mellowed out some. It's in Z that Bulma sticks her neck out for everyone by going to Namek, for example. The cast aren't a bunch of saints, or even people you'd wanna have a drink with, but to say they're not good is stretching it. Chaotic Good is a thing, after all.
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."Actually, they are people you'd want to be friends with.
I mean, sure, being friends with Goku will get you killed, eventually, a couple of times maybe, but hey, you're gonna be coming back to life each and every time anyway.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariDefine "more often than not". Chaotic Good merely doesn't play by the rules, but still puts the wellbeing of others above themselves. Goku himself is frequently the biggest obstacle to Goku saving the world, as he regularly spares enemies because he wants them to come back seeking revenge, actively assists villains in becoming more powerful, handicaps himself with billions of lives at stake to maximize his enjoyment of the battle, etc.
Is Goku a hero? Indisputably yes. Is he a terrible hero who is just as much a danger to his own cause as Vegeta is? Also yes.
- Defeated the Red Ribbon Army incidentally, because they happened to be between him and the Dragon Balls.
- Killed Piccolo Daimao to avenge his best friend Krillin - and may not have even been aware of the actual scope of the conflict at hand.
- Defeated Piccolo again at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai but prevented God from killing him because Goku wanted to Piccolo to recover and threaten the world again.
- Sacrificed himself to kill Raditz, a rare, indisputably heroic moment not ruined by Goku being Goku.
- Defeated Nappa and Vegeta sort of, then prevented Krillin from killing Vegeta - even knowing that Vegeta had already beaten him and that it was a goddamn miracle that they even won this fight, and also that Vegeta had been responsible for the deaths of practically all of his friends - because he wanted Vegeta to return and threaten the world again.
- Defeated Frieza, once again arriving late to the party and needing to have the full scope of the conflict explained to him in Vegeta's dying moments, and attempted on multiple occasions to give Frieza the same chance as Piccolo and Vegeta, to go away, get stronger, and come back to threaten the world again. Also sandbagged multiple times during the fight, and once he finally did have the upper hand, allowed Frieza to achieve his 100% Full Power in order to make the fight more interesting.
- Refrained from intervening when Frieza did return to destroy the Earth, despite knowing what Frieza was capable of and even having seen him blow up a planet when he was losing a fight, because he wanted to watch the new guy he'd never met before fight him.
- Allowed Dr. Gero to create the world-threatening androids despite three years of advance warning because he wanted to fight them.
- Sacrificed his life to save the world from Cell's self-destruction, which is good. Gave Cell a Senzu Bean to make his fight with Gohan more exciting, which is bad.
- Learned of a god-killing abomination empowered by conflict; turned potentially apocalyptic scenario into game of jenken.
- Agreed to fight Vegeta in full knowledge of the fact that Majin Buu would awaken from their conflict, and handicapped himself to maximize Vegeta's enjoyment, which directly resulted in Majin Buu's awakening and the ensuing annihilation of the planet Earth.
- As part of Vegito, gambled the fate of the universe on allowing himself to be absorbed by Super Buu as part of a gambit to liberate people that would have been brought back by the subsequent wish to Shenron to restore all life on Earth anyway once Super Buu had been destroyed.
- Destroyed the Potara to make the fight against Pure Buu more exciting.
Goku risks his life on a regular basis to protect the Earth, but he also has a long and storied history of allowing those threats to come into existence and even helping them in order to sate his own lust for an exciting battle. He is as much a danger to the planet as the villains he fights, strictly because he frequently allows or even aids them in threatening the Earth. In short, he is a hero by definition, but he is a poor hero, selfishly prioritizing his entertainment over the lives and wellbeing of the people he protects.
Chaotic Good? Chaotic Neutral is a better place for him. Chaotic Good still demands that a character place others above himself, and Goku fails to do that on a near-constant basis. He tries to be Good; he's just too aloof and self-absorbed to do it effectively.
And, I cannot say this enough times, that is the kind of story this is.
edited 25th Nov '14 11:04:02 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.No, Chaotic Good just means "good guy with his own moral code". That's pretty much all the good guys in Z. You're a super powered alien blowing up cities? Regardless of how strong you are or are not, Goku's gonna punch you out, or have the kids do it. The fact that he wished Buu would return, but minus the evil also lends to this. A neutral guy wouldn't care if Buu is evil or not.
It's easy to dismiss the Cell thing as Goku just being a jackass, but do remember he did it to draw out Gohan's full power so he could be the one protecting Earth. Goku also chose to stay dead because he was a magnet for trouble, which is another good guy decision.
As for Frieza, he didn't spare him because he wanted to fight him again. Look at the beautifully-drawn expression he gives after blowing Frieza away that final time. He was content to leave Frieza there to bleed out an die, but took pity on him when he begged for mercy. That's the kind of guy Goku is.
Majin Buu: Goku had a contingency in place with the fusion. Again, he wanted someone left to protect Earth instead of them depending on some dead guy to save them. If everything had gone as he'd planned (that is, Marky Mark not befriending Buu), Gotenks would've massacred Buu.
edited 26th Nov '14 6:14:50 AM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."Doesn't matter, he didn't kill them, so he's clearly just as evil as Freeza.
Of course, don't you know anything about ALCHEMY?!- Twin clones of Ivan the GreatA genocidal madman that you utterly destroyed at his best to make him know there is someone more powerful than him out there? Yeah, totally a dumb decision. Frieza totally would've been a threat to Goku if he survived Name- OH WAIT HE DID AND IT TURNS OUT GOKU WOULD'VE ARRIVED AND ANNIHILATED HIM ON EARTH IF TRUNKS DIDN'T SHOW UP. Oops.
But seriously, let's look at it:
- Frieza is a shell of his former self, bleeding out and laying cut up into multiple pieces
- Goku has proven himself Frieza's superior by leaps and bounds
- Frieza is begging for his life, showing just how pathetic he is
- Goku shows him mercy, is immediately betrayed, and then executes him
Yeah, Frieza was never gonna walk away from that. If Goku had not taken pity on him, Frieza would've just stayed their and died. If Goku had actually managed to kill him there, the only thing that would've affected is Cell being able to use the Death Beam.
edited 26th Nov '14 7:43:16 AM by Cruherrx
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."Frieza has openly displayed a willingness to blow up planets if he can't win a fight. It is only by sheer fortune that Frieza even landed on Earth to begin with, instead of blowing it up from orbit and going back to his life.
Or, best case scenario, Frieza takes Goku's act of mercy at face value. He leaves and goes back to his business and Goku never hears from him again. Billions suffer under Frieza's tyrannical rule, the systematic genocide of planets continues unabated, but Goku won his fight and that's what counts.
This line right here is where we have our disconnect: I am not calling Goku a jackass. Goku's problem isn't that he makes bad choices out of malice. It's that he makes bad choices out of ignorance. Goku puts the notion of a good fight above the wellbeing of others because that is how he prioritizes. Goku is not an evil man. He's a poor hero. That's the difference.
And that IS the difference. Goku is AMAZING at winning fights, but TERRIBLE at protecting the world. Look at his track record of villains stopped.
- Pilaf - Stopped by Oolong, not Goku.
- Red Ribbon Army - Broke themselves on Goku's impenetrable force through no deliberate intent on Goku's part.
- Tien - Redeemed by Master Roshi's advisement, illustrated unknowingly by Goku.
- Piccolo - Goku won two fights but it was Gohan softening Piccolo's heart that ended the menace for good.
- Raditz - Piccolo killed Raditz, with Goku acting as meatshield.
- Nappa - Goku won a fight against Nappa, but Vegeta was the one that killed him.
- Vegeta - Goku lost a fight against Vegeta but ultimately Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe were able to finish the job. However, he continued to threaten the Earth and cause numerous problems and benefits down the line. Vegeta is so engrained in the canon that it's hard to say what would have happened had Krillin killed him.
- Frieza's Enforcers - Killed by Vegeta.
- Ginyu Force - Goku won fights against them, but Vegeta ended their threat. Had he not, they would have died when Frieza blew up the planet.
- Captain Ginyu - Despite what anime filler suggests, probably died when Frieza blew up Namek, which is for the best, really.
- Frieza - Goku won a fight against him, but he continued to be an active threat and endangered the planet Earth until Trunks saved the universe from him. Alternate timeline suggests Goku won another fight against him if Trunks didn't show up, but nothing is known about Frieza's involvement in that timeline beyond that.
- Androids - Killed by Cell.
- Cell - Killed by Gohan, with great effort on Cell's part to draw out Gohan's hidden power. No, that is not a typo.
- Majin Buu - Goku lost fights against him, then Vegeta managed to prevail against Majin Buu using a complex plan and utilizing Goku as a weapon.
I dare you to name a single villain in the entire series that Goku, specifically, definitively saved the world from. He is very good at winning fights, and that's great because winning fights is his focus, but he also makes very poor choices rooted more firmly in his desire to fight strong guys than his desire to protect others, and other characters often have to clean up his mess as a result. When he does win against the villain, it's always a temporary victory, in part because that's how Goku likes it.
Goku is not The Hero. He's muscle. He's a fun-loving adventure-seeking Saiyan who embodies the Pure Love of Fighting like no other character in the franchise and becomes the strongest as a result, but in his heart, it's not protecting others that drives him, it's the thrill of combat, and that warps his perception and leads him to recklessly endanger the world through deliberate inaction.
edited 26th Nov '14 8:51:11 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.In what way is a person who regularly allows violent threats to others to continue to exist for his own selfish benefit not a terrible person?
At his best, Goku is a useful tool for others. He was useful for Bulma when she needed a bodyguard while searching for the Dragon Balls, he was useful for Master Roshi when he wanted to prove his point to Tien about his aspirations of assassination, he was useful for Piccolo when he needed a meatshield against Raditz, he was useful as a surrogate Saiyan Avenger to take up the mantle of Vegeta's cause when Vegeta himself wasn't up to the task, he was useful for Vegeta's plan to destroy Majin Buu, etc. etc.
Goku is at his best when other, smarter people, can point him at the enemies they needed defeated. He has heroic traits, but he's still the guy who, if someone broke into your house, he would beat up the robber, then hand him the gun back and tell him to go back outside and break in again because this is fun, all the while ignoring the damage this is causing to your house and possessions.
Then he'd get bored, give the robber his own address for when he wants to try again, and leave with both robber and gun still in your house. The point at which Vegeta is introduced, the villains are capable of destroying the entire planet without even needing to go through Goku to do it. Allowing them to walk away is the same as keeping the gun pointed at the Earth - which ultimately DOES result in the complete annihilation of the planet, as Vegito's master plan to risk everything going inside Super Buu to rescue people who would have been brought back by Shenron anyway results in Pure Buu, a villain who finally doesn't care overmuch about fighting Goku and just does what Vegeta, Frieza, and Cell all could have done in the first place.
edited 26th Nov '14 9:09:21 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.'Cause he's an idiot, not a terrible person.
You quote Hanlon's Razor, and yet you ignore it so much.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariMost terrible people are terrible out of ignorance. That is why I quote Hanlon's Razor. Even malice is rarely born of anything but.
Lack of empathy, in particular, is a leading cause of people being terrible, and Goku has that in spades too. On a personal level, his Saiyan tunnel-vision towards awesome fights results in him openly failing to acknowledge the concept that others don't live like that. He eventually grew out of his serial-molesting phase when he learned to identify genders visually, but he never learned to respect other worldviews.
At its most extreme, this resulted in the ideological conflict between Goku and Gohan at the Cell Games. Gohan's pacifism conflicted with Goku's bloodlust, resulting in Goku's master plan of Gohan getting in the ring with Cell and immediately busting out Super Saiyan 2 and overwhelming him with sheer awesomeness being foiled by Gohan's own personality. Everyone would have died for Goku's inability to empathize with his own son, had it not been for the hard work Cell put in to draw out Gohan's Hidden Power and tweak Goku's plan into working.
Goku's Saiyan appetite combined with his inability to recognize the value of food results in him eating his friends out of house and home - most notably, when he ate Kame'sennin's entire tournament winnings in the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai. He is a thoroughly inconsiderate husband, outright ignoring and actively working around his wife to lead his children down his road whether they want to or not. He's socially maladjusted because he's never made an effort to really interact with people outside of fighting and, as a result, can only really get along with other people who've dedicated their lives to fighting, and Bulma who has known him for so long that she's used to this.
Spending any amount of time with Goku is an adjustment process in and of itself because he is so socially abnormal and puts in no effort on his own part. On a personal level, he's loyal to his friends, but a pretty shitty person to be around; he makes up for that by being a great hero though, except as we've just discussed, no, he really doesn't. That is why Goku is a terrible person. That he is terrible through ignorance rather than malice does not justify his behaviors, nor his unwillingness to learn better ones. Ignorant selfishness is still selfishness.
edited 26th Nov '14 9:29:58 AM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

Do remember that Saiyan children wipe out entire populations.
"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."