Manga/Dragon Ball

The Angels being two-faced sassy bitches to their Gods is one of my favorite things. Especially since the Angels in charge of the more responsible and effective Gods of Destruction seem to get along better with them. Looking at the three worst universes, Vados and Whis will stab Champa and Beerus in the back without a second thought, and Mojito seemed to outright hate the gods he was saddled with.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 6th 2018 at 7:47:14 AM

Though that only applies to Anime Mojito.

Manga Mojito seems far less...satisfied at their erasure.

That being said, you can't blame Anime Mojito for grinning from ear to ear when it happens. It does seem kinda sad that one of the kindest GOD's is also the most incompetent, but good being utterly impotent seems to be a thing in DB.

Then again, being nice doesn't mean your good at your job. I do wonder how much of Sidra's incompetence was entirely him, and how much of it was the complete lack of assistance on Mojito's part (as while angels are supposed to advise their gods, they rarely seem to do anything to curb said gods more selfish impulses).

One Strip! One Strip!

So, does anyone else wonder what happened to the angels of the other 6 universes? When there were 18?

Like, the 8 Angels of the erased universes in the Tournament of Power get to sit pretty, but.

...It makes less sense in the manga. In the anime maybe they knew they'd keep their jobs anyway, but in the manga there's no moral test, because the Zenos don't give a shit.

If the angels were erased in the tournament too, I'd be fine with it, it'd explain where the missing 6 went.

Now it feels like almost a plot hole.

...Aside from that, I like the moments where Vados and Whis are sassy, but. I dunno, I wish there a handful more moments of them being nice? Friendly? With Beerus and Champa?

Maybe I imagined it, but there seem to be a handful of moments of genuine affection there?

Like, a relationship of two people forced together that cannot stand each other might be funny, and I sorta wanna see it, but that doesn't seem like Vados and Whis with their GoDs to me?

Like. I love Vados's last bow of respect to Champa.

...Although, on the other hand, Beerus does threaten Whis sometimes.

Thinking about it, Whis does seem to care more for Universe 7's food and maybe Goku as a student more than Beerus personally.

The way he talks about Goku's Ultra Instinct doesn't sound at all detached or neutral.

Edited by unnoun on Dec 6th 2018 at 11:23:03 AM

There is a God of Destruction who uses similar tactics to Sidre, just much better: Arack, who's in charge of one of the four best universes. I really love the writing and character bios for the Gods of the various universes, because they tell you a lot about how mortal levels work and what makes for a good universe. From worst to best, with the Kaioshin going first, the God of Destruction going second, and the Angel going third:

U9, the worst universe, paired with U4: Ro is an arrogant asshole who talks big but clearly doesn't care about putting in the work. Sidra is indecisive and lets bad situations escalate far beyond the point he should've stepped in. Mojito is apparently a genius who feels like he's being wasted having to deal with these incompetents. When the consequences of the tournament became public, there was massive rioting.

U7, our universe, paired with U6: Shin is an inexperienced amateur thrust into a position he was unprepared for. Beerus is petty and lazy, and judges planets for destruction based on the quality of their cuisine, an utterly irrelevant factor in civilization quality. Whis is a Whis.

U6, paired with U7: Fuwa is a bit nervous and absentminded, but he at least seems to know how to do his job. Champa is just as bad as Beerus. Vados is even sassier than Whis.

U4, paired with U9: Kuru is prideful of his status as a god, and he thinks it's shameful when they bicker over petty things. Quitela is scheming and devious, and he lacks compassion for other universes. He also is arrogant to a fault, even when clearly backed into a corner. Cognac is talented and insightful, apparently.

U10, paired with U3: Gowasu is wise and experienced, though he also has a casual side. He can be blinded by his own optimism. Rumush is lazy and doesn't like to destroy planets because it's an inconvenience. He's also a bit of a meathead who believes that muscle is the best way to win a fight when mind fails. Kusu is fairly active as far as Angels go, bonding with both Gowasu and Rumush and advising them on the nature of good and evil, though she also enjoys blood-pumping fights between good and evil. Despite looking and acting young and goofy, she's also the eldest of the Angel siblings. Kusu is the most emotional and attached Angel we've seen so far.

U3, paired with U10: Ea favors mechanical life-forms over natural ones, and specifically designed his universe to value intelligence, knowledge, and scientific growth. Mule is a little imp-man who secretly lives inside a robot called Mosco, so we don't know much about his true personality. Mosco is very straight-forward, from what we hear of Camparri translating for him. Camparri and Mosco have a very close relationship, and Camparri is another more emotive Angel, getting frustrated when his team was doing poorly and a little emotional when U3 was erased.

U2, paired with U11: Pell is the strongest of all the currently active Kaioshin, and he believes in muscles and strength. However, he's also very chivalrous and kind, and he believes in the power of love as much as the rest of his universe. Jerez dislikes ugliness and evil, and she believes in the power of love and kindness. She is a bit vain, though. Sour is serious and apparently considers himself more intelligent than others, though he smiled when his universe was doing well and was sad when it was erased. In stark contrast to U9, when U2 heard they would be erased, they joined hands in peace and love to cheer on their fighter representatives.

U11, paired with U2: Cae values life and has a strong sense of justice, and he's good at keeping his composure and thinking through problems. Vermoud does not abide by evil, and he's very pleased with the heroic efforts of the Pride Troopers. Vermoud also talks with and listens to his Kaioshin and Angel as equals. Marcarita gives frequent advice to her Kaioshin and God, and they listen to her advice and follow it. Marcarita also speaks overly politely, and she takes pride in her trainee, Toppo, and her universe, probably because she had more of a hand in crafting it than other Angels do.

U8, the first of the four top universes, paired with U5: Iru loves making plans and gets fired up when they come together. Liquiir works with Iru to eliminate flaws in his plans and he strictly destroys anything that would make his universe worse. Liquiir is also friendly and interested in the power of love. Korn is very assertive and has a high opinion of himself.

U5, paired with U8: Ogma is gentle and values a balance of knowledge and power. She is proud of her work, and pleased to hear that she did a good job on her universe. Arack is disciplined and merciful, investigating thoroughly what he should destroy. He tries to improve his universe while destroying the minimal amount in contrast to Liquiir, showing that while both approaches are effective, Arack's is slightly better. Cukatail watches over Ogma and Arack and tries to learn from their knowledge, which is a unique trait for an Angel.

U12, paired with U1: Ag says virtuous things and aspires to make his great universe even better. Geene performs his job mercilessly and without discrimination, but he's become bored recently because there's nothing in his universe that needs destruction. Martinu doesn't have much to do since her gods are so good, but she tries to think of ways to improve them.

U1, the best and most mysterious universe, paired with U12: Anat has a gentle smile, and was one of the only ones to realize that Goku gave the lower universes a chance with the Tournament. That said, he was also the only god to not care about the outcome of the Tournament, and was unfazed at the universal erasure, even saying that it was necessary for balance between the universes. Iwne is very efficient and successful, and he has strong passion, enthusiasm, or explosive feelings in contrast to his calm exterior. His true appearance resembles that of Shiva, the Hindu god of destruction. Apparently, Awamo can sense everything. I predict U1 will be an arc and Iwne will be an arc villain at some point in the future, this information is too ominous and vague to lead to nothing.

The Super multiverse and the personalities of the gods within it is probably my favorite bit of Dragon Ball lore, and I REALLY want to see it explored more in the future, especially the top four universes and ESPECIALLY the mysterious number 1. I could go on and on about how much I love how the characterization of the gods informs how they raised their universes, and how the Angels sometimes don't quite match their universe's personality because of course, they don't, the Angels were around first and don't usually insert their personalities much into their universes.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Dec 6th 2018 at 10:26:04 AM

Toriyama actually specifically ordered Toyotaro that Angels should not be too fond of their Gods of Destruction. In the manga at least, none of them seem bothered when their Destroyers are erased, either.

Yes, because complete disinterest is such a compelling character dynamic.

I mean, it can be depending on why it exists. But the angels don't really seem to be that interesting of characters, all things considered.

The Angels in the manga show little emotion in general beyond the occasional smirk. Because, of course, they routinely preside over the deaths of billions without a thought. In my opinion it's a lot better than their counterparts in the anime who I just find annoying and cringeworthy.

The Angels seem redundant. I think it'd be better if there was just Whis and he served the role of EGP.

Edited by Kamiccolo on Dec 6th 2018 at 11:29:46 AM

Wasn't that comment in the context of Clown God having a romantic relationship with his angel? There's a pretty wide gap between that and complete indifference.

Edited by Moth13 on Dec 6th 2018 at 2:31:10 PM

The Angels not being allowed to have any character dynamics or special relationships with their Destroyers is pretty boring but not unexpected of Toriyama.

Uh, what? The angels in the anime have the exact same detachment, with the notable exception of Kusu. The only difference is that they have actual personalities.

Why have the concept of mortal level if it's not something the characters who bring it up have any investment in.

Also, even in the Manga, Whis is frequently emoting whenever food is involved.

Honestly, I think it's Misogynistic that Whis can have a food addiction but Marcarita can't fuck.

That seems to be a thing thing with him.

He apparently also wanted Goku to just be a monkey tailed kid who just likes fighting strong guys (though I could be wrong about that).

I don’t know why he seems to do that. It’s not a disdain for Character Development; we’d have never gotten Vegeta as he is now if that were so.

Perhaps it’s to emphasize that the angels are different from even Gods or Mortals.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 6th 2018 at 12:52:22 PM

One Strip! One Strip!

I mean... not really. Nothing comparable to the anime, anyway.

So Paragus cut off Broly's Tail cuz he was too out of control.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

How come there are already big spoilers of the new Broly movie? I thought it wasn't even going to be released in Japan until December 14?

By the by, has anything new about King Cold been revealed in the movie? If so, please put a spoiler tag on it

Edited by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 on Dec 6th 2018 at 10:18:07 PM

Really!? C’mon Toriyama! Just draw a damn tail! Why are you so determined to get rid of them now?

You could have revealed the tail as part of the reason Broly is so strong! We’ve never had a Super Saiyan with a tail... from you that is. Toei has done it.

Edit: Also, here's a video from Masako X about the Ginyu Force:

I'm pretty sure the stuff about Guuldo and Ginyu have been mentioned before, but I don't recall hearing those tidbits about Jeice, Burter and Recoome (though that last one does explain a hell of a lot).

As for Jeice being Space Yamcha...I don't know if one factoid about him really lines up...and the Crusher Ball only superficially resembles the Spirit Ball in that both are balls. The latter lacks the ability to be controlled from what I could see. That being said, I wouldn't totally put it past Toriyama. He does tend to re-use character concepts, creating a character, getting bored of them, and then creating another character who's bit is the same, but they do it better.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Dec 6th 2018 at 3:32:13 AM

One Strip! One Strip!

The world premiere was last month. There are full plot synopses floating around.

Of course, all of the big stuff was already spoiled by the marketing.

Edited by LordVatek on Dec 6th 2018 at 5:54:14 AM

This song needs more love.

If having a tail made you stronger it'd be really stupid that the main universe Saiyans lost their tails.

Also all the Saiyans in the flashback have tails, and present day Paragus still has one. I don't see why you're getting worked up over this.

That's a huge stretch. None of the angels have shown sexual desire, and Whis' interest in food doesn't require him to be affectionate to his GoD, which is what Toriyama didn't want.

Anyway, I wish that Vermoud and Marcarita were lovers, just to have some different dynamics. So far nothing has been done with the idea that angels aren't that fond of their charges, so it seems like a pretty pointless detail. If they turned out to be evil that'd at least explain it (not that I necessarily think that's a good idea).

That said it'd be pretty unethical on the angel's part.

Wasnt the tails making Goku stronger explicitly a thing when his tail spontaneously grew back at one of the tournaments?

Nope. He was just way stronger than Giran.

The reason he could break out of Giran's gum after his tail grew back is because Giran was so shocked he just stood there while Goku strained to break out.

He said he feels stronger, but...that's just a thing that happened.

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.

...what?

Doesn't he say he's always stronger with his tail? And there's the whole tail is the true source of their power...then again, that's another retconned Raditz thing.

But yeah, the real thing is that Toriyama's reason's for getting rid of tails were kinda dumb (HOW DOES GOKU PUT ON HIS PANTS!? DUUUH!!!) and now he's going out of his way to take them out even though he himself isn't drawing the series anymore. There's a lot to be explored with Super Saiyans with tails I think, and he's deliberately going out of his way not to do so due to a strange grudge against tails.

One Strip! One Strip!

I can see how this makes it sound like he literally gets stronger, but it's not explicit and such a detail is never mentioned again.

He was disorientated when he first lost his tail, but doesn't mention becoming weaker. Same deal when he loses it to Gohan mid-fight.

I wouldn't think he'd take God's offer to permanently remove his tail if it weakened him.

Again, every Saiyan in the flashback has a tail. Baby Broly has a tail. Old Paragus has a tail. Adult Broly's tail being removed is clearly for plot Considering that he has a humanoid version of Oozaru and Paragus is trying to control him.

Edited by Saiga on Dec 6th 2018 at 9:28:28 PM

Soon.◊