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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8901: Nov 17th 2014 at 8:26:32 AM

Ugh, really? Frieza? What about all the gods from other universes stuff? The only reason I'm not completely writing this off is Toriyama being the writer.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8902: Nov 17th 2014 at 8:28:19 AM

I so called this.

When they first started talking about this movie, they said a powerful villain from the past would be revived by his followers. Frieza was the only character that fit that bill. Of course it's Frieza.

And as was noted, yes, Frieza is almost certainly going to get a random bullshit power-up to bring him to relevancy. It doesn't matter what your power level was before, there are just so many free power-ups floating around the Dragon Ball universe that if the writer wants to make a character strong enough to compete, he can Hand Wave something pretty effortlessly.

If Toriyama wanted to make Yamcha the villain of the next movie, Yamcha would randomly discover a magic superweapon that increases his power to beyond godly proportions and that would be that.

edited 17th Nov '14 8:30:10 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8903: Nov 17th 2014 at 8:30:25 AM

The power of the author: you can do whatever the fuck you want and nobody can oppose you.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#8904: Nov 17th 2014 at 8:33:27 AM

Cell would definitely be the better choice. You can even justify it by having him go "What, did you seriously think there were no backups anywhere?", or even start with him escaping from Hell. He's basically the most powerful being in the Afterlife anyway, and I can totally see him escaping hell while everyone is busy dropping their fudge over Bills being anywhere near a populated planet.

Have him restart the droid things that collect DNA so that he can upgrade himself to be relevant again... and then have them pick up one of Bills' hairs. Cue Perfect God Cell.

...

I am so going to write that fanfic.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8905: Nov 17th 2014 at 8:35:59 AM

To be honest, I don't think this will play out like it seems at first. "OH NO FRIEZA'S BACK AND HIS POWER LEVEL IS NOW ELEVENTY BILLION". Considering this is Toriyama writing it, there's bound to be some unexpected twist to this thing that seems like a generic movie villain plot.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8906: Nov 17th 2014 at 9:07:54 AM

Cell can't escape from Hell. Despite what filler may lead some to believe, neither Frieza nor Cell got to keep their bodies when they died - or with them, their power levels. They both became floaty wisps until judgment, and then were judged and sentenced. Any time you see Frieza and Cell in Hell is pure anime filler.

Cell is not the most powerful entity in Hell, because Cell is no more or less powerful than every other dead person that didn't get to take their carcass with them.

Also, both Cell and Frieza probably should have reincarnated by now, but we're apparently ignoring that for this movie.

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8907: Nov 17th 2014 at 9:15:01 AM

So remnants of freeza empire use dragonballs to bring him back to life? I'm pretty sure that there's a fanfic with that exact premise floating somewhere on the net.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8908: Nov 17th 2014 at 9:19:17 AM

Dragonball Online.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8909: Nov 17th 2014 at 9:36:39 AM

We're also going to ignore the whole "Dragon Balls can't revive anyone dead past a year thing" too, because fuck continuity, it's Toriyama's series and he can do whatever the fuck he wants.

So since Battle of gods had a more comedic direction, can we expect the same from this movie too? I admit, Battle of gods was pretty enjoyable because of the comedy, rather than despite it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8910: Nov 17th 2014 at 10:02:13 AM

The Dragon Balls have no time limit on singular resurrections. The one-year rule is only for mass revivals.

It's never been established how the Dragon Balls' ability to resurrect is supposed to coexist with the setting utilizing reincarnation, however, and this just makes it more confusing. Like, theoretically, you can make a wish right now to resurrect Pure Buu. Even though his soul is Uub, Shenron would still be able to bring Pure Buu back to life, and this would have no detrimental effects on Uub?

edited 17th Nov '14 10:06:09 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#8911: Nov 17th 2014 at 10:17:28 AM

Considering that Goku had to specifically ask for Buu to be reincarnated and Buu was an Eldritch Abomination with unfathomable magical powers... I'm going to go as far as to say Reincarnation is not as common as you might think. Heaven would be pointless, and hell, it'd even be outright cruel if people reincarnate, 'cause you'd take them off eternal bliss.

Also, I know that Cell is just a soul, but I could buy that he eventually figured out a way to get a body, or maybe Babidi can still work his magic even though he's just a soul and does the trick himself, though they have to wait until the crisis with Bills gives them enough of a distraction to pull it off.

There are ways to get past that limitation.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8912: Nov 17th 2014 at 10:34:07 AM

Honestly, that sounds severely fanficy but eh, Toriyama would do it...if he cared about Cell :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8913: Nov 17th 2014 at 10:39:19 AM

I guess Frieza has been eating his wheaties while dead.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#8914: Nov 17th 2014 at 10:47:10 AM

'Fanficy'... is that an insult?

'Cuz there's no plot that hasn't been done in fanfiction before.

Hell, Dragon Ball is Journey To The West fanfiction.

edited 17th Nov '14 10:47:44 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8915: Nov 17th 2014 at 10:56:27 AM

First of all, Goku didn't ask for Buu to be reincarnated, he asked that WHEN Buu is reincarnated, for him to be reincarnated with all his strength and to be a good person, so that Goku could fight with him again.

By contrast, there is no guarantee Frieza would be reincarnated as a decent human being, and he'd have whatever power level he's born with rather than his 120 million. Uub, however, gets to be as strong as Pure Buu because of Goku's request.

Second, no, Cell can't just figure out a way to get a body. People who keep their bodies don't just get A body, they get their body, the one they died in. It would have to be restored by a god and granted to them by King Yema, who is unlikely to be granting any favors for Cell or Babidi any time soon. Ultimately, it doesn't matter what Cell or Babidi were capable of in life, because they don't get to take that with them in death.

Restoring Cell's body wouldn't be a patch job either; it was exploded into a million pieces and those pieces were vaporized. Cell would need to have friends in high places with serious connections, or someone alive to wish him back with the Dragon Balls, for him to ever return and that is where he hits his biggest stumbling block: in-universe, nobody cares about Cell. He has no allies, no friends, no loyal subjects, nobody who would make the required effort to pull him back out of oblivion.

As far as the universe is concerned, Cell is something that just sort of happened for a few years and then died as quickly as his abrupt arrival, with nearly all the damage he caused being undone, ultimately shaping few lives and leaving no lasting impressions on anything. Frieza ruled a powerful empire that shaped millions of lives, the Saiyans destroyed countless planets, Majin Buu killed gods, and Cell...well, Cell killed one of the few remaining Saiyans, and nothing else was influenced by his short existence.

Ultimately, Cell's death meant more than his life; the closest thing to a lasting legacy he left behind him is that Mr. Satan became really famous for killing him.

edited 17th Nov '14 11:03:29 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#8916: Nov 17th 2014 at 11:01:44 AM

Eh, it wouldn't be the first time DB asspulls some previously unseen affiliate of a prior bad guy out with a grudge against the Z Senshi and gleefully unleashing forces beyond their control. Just say there was some previously unknown old disciple of Dr. Gero/follower of the Red Ribbon who wants to revive Cell, or at least create Cell 2.0...

... It's not that much worse than 'Old unseen soldiers of Frieza who long for the tyrant that would kill them for lulz at any time he wanted to'.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#8917: Nov 17th 2014 at 11:15:15 AM

[up][up]So, what I take from your post, is that your speculation is supposed to be fact.

See, the thing here is that you don't know for sure. While we have a vague understanding of how the afterlife works, it's not enough to absolutely rule out anything. Toriyama left himself plenty of wiggle room, in that regard.

For all you know, there is a way for people in hell to get a body. It's just that nobody figured it out before, or the one that did just wasn't powerful enough to make a difference.

Cell is essentially the most powerful being in hell right now. The only one who could've come anywhere near close is Dabura, and he's in Heaven.

How do you know that what they were capable of in life means nothing in death? Are you sure? Do you know that Babidi can't use his magic in hell somehow, or that, given enough time, he wouldn't be able to figure out a way to do it?

I'm speculating, as well, but at least I'm not trying to present my speculation as fact.

You can't rule out the fact that there could be a Cell backup somewhere. You can't rule out the fact that there could be some student of Doctor Gero who wants to revive Project Cell, thereby providing Cell with a convenient body. Hell, you can't even rule out the possibility of Cell finding the body of his 'innocent' fetus self somewhere in the afterlife after years of wandering about as a soul, take over it and evolve himself until such a time he can make a run for it.

Hell, who's to say there's not some guy who suspects that Cell was never killed by Mr. Satan, who feels cheated and revives Cell with the Dragon Balls just to prove to the world that it wasn't Mr. Satan who did it?

It's no more farfetched or dumb than there being people who want to bring Freeza of all people back to life. Particularly because that would necessitate hearing about the Dragon Balls in the first place, and those aren't exactly advertised by any of the people who have or are after them.

edited 17th Nov '14 11:20:52 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8918: Nov 17th 2014 at 11:40:30 AM

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know. The mechanics of the afterlife have been explained. It was explained by God when Goku got to keep his body in the first place that this was a special case. We have seen the puff balls that all deceased become. Piccolo - having fused with God and now possessing of his knowledge and wisdom - later explained the same thing to Vegeta when the latter asked if he would see Kakarot on the other side, that Goku got to keep his body as a special circumstance, while Vegeta would receive no such benefit, and his soul would be passed into the reincarnation cycle, never to see Goku again in any capacity.

When Vegeta was granted his body back, it was done by King Yema and done in order to allow him to fight Majin Buu, because that situation had crossed the Godzilla Threshold and Vegeta was the best option King Yema could find. All of this is explained in the story proper. Furthermore, the only time the series even references Hell is when Goku's warned not to fall off Snake Way; contrary to the anime's filler, Hell is never seen, nobody ever visits Hell, and the existence of reincarnation as the ultimate destination of sublimely evil beings is very firmly established in the Buu Saga.

There is no wiggle room because the series very firmly established how the afterlife works. Dabura is not in Heaven, Cell is not the strongest being in Hell, Hell might not even exist, and if it does, nobody in Hell has a body. All of these concepts are plot holes introduced by filler anime writers that actively contradict the way the afterlife is established in the story.

Now, as far as a Cell backup goes, given that Dr. Gero scrapped Cell, that's unlikely. His supercomputer finished Cell without him, and said supercomputer doesn't have a body and therefore is very limited in its ability to manipulate the world outside the laboratory that Krillin destroyed. It would make even less sense than Gero usually makes for him to have created a backup for a project he had no intention of completing in the first place.

As for students of Dr. Gero, what students, and how would they even know that Cell was a thing in the first place? Nobody knew about Cell. Even the Androids didn't know about Cell. The only way anyone found out Cell existed was because Cell himself explained it. Even Dr. Gero didn't know Cell still existed and was still being constructed by his supercomputer.

Finding the body of his innocent fetus self? Um, no. Why would the fetus be allowed to keep its body? Nobody does. If it had a soul in the first place, it would be a soul puff like everybody else. That makes no sense at all.

Finally, yes, it makes perfect sense that someone would want to bring Frieza back, because Frieza ruled a powerful empire loaded with loyal followers. That there exists followers still loyal to Frieza this long after his downfall is not out of the question, especially because many of his upper class profited from service to him. Zarbon and Dodoria weren't exactly slaves working in a coal mine, and as to how they know about the Dragon Balls, that's not difficult either; most of the aliens that found out about the Dragon Balls did so by overhearing, and Cui and Vegeta had a loud conversation about them in the hallway of one of Frieza's bases.

The question there isn't "Why would someone want Frieza back?" or "How would they know about the Dragon Balls?" but rather "Why would they sit on this knowledge for 7+ years?" and I sincerely hope the movie has an answer for that.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#8919: Nov 17th 2014 at 12:15:18 PM

As for students of Dr. Gero, what students?

Um, you realize Gero himself was a retcon add-on brought in long after the original Red Ribbon had been destroyed, right? And even so, no one bats an eye when this guy with ultra powerful backups and ultra-souped up himself, whom we never saw or were hinted at during the original arc, comes out of nowhere and starts kicking ass in the name of the same army he never was around to help when they were having their asses kicked by a 9-years old with a tail. In this kind of universe, a repeat of that is perfectly fair play.

You seem to be under the impression the DB-verse works by a strict ruleset, but this ain't the Nasuverse. Toriyama himself outright forgets things he previously set up and/or ignores them whenever he comes with new ideas. There's no big plan, and elements are kept in, added or retired as the creator(s) see fit. It's been that way the whole time, since the Moon was blown twice to the reveal of Bulma having a sister we never saw or heard about before. DB is basically 'Children playing Calvinball at the backyard' levels of storytelling, even ignoring things like GT or the non serial movies. That's part of its charm, and it gets by Grandfather Clause- the problem is not DB was so... loosely written, but that today's Shounen for the most part haven't grown out of that phase yet.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8920: Nov 17th 2014 at 12:25:09 PM

[up] I not only realize that, I frequently bring it up when I claim that the Cell Saga is the weakest arc of the entire series. He doesn't even appropriately fit into their naming theme, which actually bugs me more than his convoluted, self-contradictory plans or the fact that he's a new character masquerading as a returning character because I'm silly that way.

The complete plotfuckery of the Cell Saga aside, however, while it is clear that Toriyama was writing by the seat of his pants the entire way, the canon of the Dragon Ball Z manga isn't usually that difficult to make sense of.

Also, the moon was restored by God. It being blown up a second time is not the plot hole that people keep claiming it to be. I will grant you Bulma's older sister coming right the f*ck out of nowhere.

edited 17th Nov '14 12:29:27 PM by TobiasDrake

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#8921: Nov 17th 2014 at 12:27:38 PM

Hey, dood, want to know something funny?

Kami is not God, in the Judeo-Christian sense. He is more of a guardian than he is an almighty, all-knowing entity. Why would he have a perfect and keen understanding of how the afterlife's mechanics work? I'm sure he has an idea, it seems like he has at least dealt with Yemma before. But whyever would he know everything there is to know about the afterlife? The only guy whose word I'd trust in this regard is the Supreme Kai, and even then, it'd be the old one, 'cuz the young one doesn't seem to know lots of stuff he really should, probably because of the whole "Majin Buu killed everyone" stuff.

Freeza had 'Loyal followers'..? The only remotely loyal people were the Ginyu force! And even then, it's probably only because they're high value and thus safe from his temper tantrums.

Regardless, I'm through arguing with you. It's pointless, you will continue insisting that your speculation is fact, when the fact is that Toriyama did not define the rules of the afterlife beyond a few concepts that do not, in fact, actually limit anything a sufficiently clever writer wants to do.

PS: I like the 'Dabura is sent to heaven to become a femmy ghost thing' bit. Sue me.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8922: Nov 17th 2014 at 12:34:40 PM

If you want to argue that God was wrong and that the afterlife actually works in a way that is never so much as hinted at in the canon, by all means, go right ahead. Just know that you're not arguing against me, you are arguing against canon.

By the same logic, Krillin can become a Super Saiyan, because nobody said humans CAN'T become Super Saiyans, and anyone who did might be wrong.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#8923: Nov 17th 2014 at 12:41:47 PM

You want to know my response to that?

Well, either that, or this, whichever suits you best, really.

edited 17th Nov '14 12:45:47 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8924: Nov 17th 2014 at 1:05:02 PM

Just going to throw in I'm kind of excited to see Frieza come back, and narrative convention aside, it's kind of cool that the Big Bad gets another title fight with Goku.

Plus that is a badass movie poster. And as much as I like Beerus proving Always Someone Better, I'm curious to see what Frieza's role in this will be (snarky assumptions of bullshit aside).

Now what bugs me is that Yamcha's wearing a new outfit on the cover. As if he's going to get in on the action here

edited 17th Nov '14 1:06:21 PM by FOFD

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#8925: Nov 17th 2014 at 1:06:58 PM

...

The movie will be Yamcha VS Freeza. Toriyama for Troll of the Year 2015!

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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