TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#8751: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:23:50 PM

In addition to trying to avert Can't Catch Up, I like Tien's array of techniques.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8752: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:28:39 PM

Yea, his techniques are rather unique compared to everyone else.

...It's rather ironic, Tien invents the Solarflare, but people generally assume it's a Krillin technique.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#8753: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:30:00 PM

I forget. Ain't Dragon Ball like the most lucrative manga/anime franchise of all time on top of being the most internationally famous? Well One Piece may make a bigger profit than it, but then again One Piece is such a runaway success that it being top dog goes without saying, at which point for the sake of argument Dragon Ball goes back up in the rankings. Also wasn't it made like 30 year ago or something yet still remains relevant when most fads are lucky to stay relevant pass their first year?

Yep. Toriyama sure as hell doesn't know how to write shit.

edited 5th Nov '14 3:32:19 PM by Spirit

#IceBearForPresident
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8754: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:30:55 PM

Popularity=/=Quality.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Spirit Pretty flower from America Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Hooked on a feeling
Pretty flower
#8755: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:33:35 PM

All things being equal, no. It does tend to mean something was done right though.

#IceBearForPresident
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8756: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:38:57 PM

Goku is an alien and he just forgot because he hit his head and I'm only mentioning this now several hundred chapters in because.... Oh and Roshi didn't say anything because....

M Night would be proud of that level of writing.

Why do people read Dragon Ball? Have you ever seen it listed as having the greatest story in manga history? how about the most-developed and three-dimensional characters?

The answer is no to both. People like Dragon Ball for nebulous reasons. Berserk is a good series to look for in-depth characters and people bring that up a lot. The works of Masamune Shirow are often praised for their worldbuilding.

Nobody ever qualifies WHY DB is good and that's because very little about it is good.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8757: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:39:04 PM

"Vegeta is an awful character and a great symbol of what a shitty writer Toriyama is."

Fantastic fucking argument here, kids. Truly this is such an infallible one that we may as well bow before this poster's insight and dare not oppose it.

@Spirit, One Piece pales next to Dragonball. It only surpassed Dragonball in volume sales because it has far more volumes than Dragonball does. One Piece has actually been running longer than DB. Weird, huh?

edited 5th Nov '14 3:40:31 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8758: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:39:24 PM

[up][up]I'm not saying Dragon Ball isn't overall enjoyable, but it does have quite a few moments of stupid writing that people tend to overlook because it's popular.

And everyone knows going against the popular opinion is a crime punishable by death on the Internet.

[up]You're not really able to claim any moral high ground when you make him fun of him like that.

edited 5th Nov '14 3:44:36 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8759: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:42:11 PM

[up][up] I qualified my argument right beneath that line... If you are going to retort to me, actually respond to what my point was.

I post in this thread because I grew up with DBZ. It's a part of my childhood and I'll never forget that. But I've seen and read MUCH better anime and manga since then. Toriyama's failings as a writer are blatantly obvious.

You know I'm just going to say my claiming Vegeta was a shitty character was hyperbole. I don't hate him. I just don't think he was particularly amazing and trying to prop him up while putting Tenshinhan down was laughable to me.

edited 5th Nov '14 3:58:09 PM by Nikkolas

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8760: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:58:07 PM

Haha, no. Yuyu Hakusho, which you seem to enjoy so much, is nowhere near as good as DBZ.

I read your whole post, and you made no argument. You made a statement insulting Toriyama's work because a character you liked didn't amount to anything.

"He was the first to be redeemed!"

Nope, that title belongs to Yamcha (or hell, even Ox King). I'd be much more interested in you providing an argument as to why Vegeta, the character who got the most development in Z, is an awful character. Because that's a far lengthier and meatier discussion than the two or three lines anyone can type about Ten.


As for Ten's supposed hard work, it really isn't. He knows Bulma has gravity machines. He knows the Room of Space and Time is available to him. What does he do instead of use these harder training methods? He instead goes into the mountains because he wants to be a badass loner. That's the definition of stupid.

Meanwhile, guys like Goku and Vegeta are constantly training in harsher and harsher environments and pushing their bodies to the very brink. They are the ones that work hard. Krillin is the one that dove headfirst into danger and kept everyone alive on Namek. He earned his power up. Ten is just a little bitch.

edited 5th Nov '14 3:59:42 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8761: Nov 5th 2014 at 4:03:39 PM

....who mentioned Yu Yu Hakusho? What thread are you even reading?

Here, this is what I said: "HE MURDERED THE ONLY GUY BULMA HAS BEEN WITH THE ENTIRE SERIES AND SHE INVITES HIM TO LIVE WITH HER WITHOUT HESITATION. "

And since you were so cosmically unwise as to say YYH was inferior to DBZ....yeah, you're so blatantly wrong there it hurts. Younger Toguro? Three-dimensional character. Shinobu Sensui? Three-dimensional character. Yomi? Three-dimensional character.

Freeza? I AM EVIL AND A TYRANT AND I KILL THINGS BECAUSE I'M TRULY SCARED OF THEM.

You can't get more generic and pathetic and unoriginal than Freeza.

Cell? I AM EVIL BECAUSE........I AM EVIL!

Babidi and Buu? Well, who the fuck even knows about Buu anymore sincE Toriyama apparently has retconned it so Bibidi didn't even make Buu like was established several times in the series.

They're all evil just because with no real personality or depth or motivation.

And this is not even getting into how Yusuke Uramesh is an infinitely superior protagonist to Goku. Because, you know, he has character development? Goku meanwhile lets murderous villains go because he wants to fight them again, even if it means risking the life of his wife and child. Probably because Goku never loved Chi-Chi or Gohan.

What a hero.

And Tien was DEAD during Namek. Did you forget that little detail? When it looked like Vegeta and Trunks were dead meat, who rushed in headlong to save them? Tien.

When Buu was going to finish off our heroes, who rushed in to save them? Tien.

edited 5th Nov '14 4:10:09 PM by Nikkolas

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8762: Nov 5th 2014 at 4:04:01 PM

[up][up]Such eloquent language :V

Unlike Goku or Vegeta, Tien isn't a saiyan meaning he actually has limits to what he can actually do. I'm pretty sure he can't handle about 480x gravity without it killing him.

The Room of Space and Time can only be used twice per lifetime and you can't stay in there for more than two days before the entrance disappears.

Goku and Vegeta are literally built for fighting, it's their inherent nature and their bodies are adapted to take as much punishment as possible to continue fighting longer. Tien does not have that luxury, so he actually to do things *gasp* like a human would :V

We already know he'll never catch up, but stop acting like he doesn't try when he clearly does more than any other HUMAN character.

EDIT: Is this thread really gonna delve into 13 year old level of insults with "UR CHARACTER SUX LOL" because, I want no part of it.

edited 5th Nov '14 4:06:26 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
JDTcreates J.D.T.creates from New York City Since: Aug, 2011
J.D.T.creates
#8763: Nov 5th 2014 at 4:22:07 PM

Okay, what's the dragon-ball hate from the guy who was asking about power levels a second ago? There is constructive criticism and then there's that...

Dragonball is a series with flaws, it's actually kind of hard not to find a series with those. When it got around the Z saga, the fact that is was more action-packed meant that it felt like it had to pick up the pace between battles. So yes, there was less time for the multitude of characters built to that point, causing some to be overshadowed.

But Dragonball is still one of the most influential shonen, I don't think anyone can argue that. That's why the recent generation of shonen (Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, I think Fairy Tail is starting to get some traction) take things that Dragonball couldn't/didn't do-like upgrade the majority of the cast at once or have more prominent female characters.

My point is that Dragonball has problems that we can talk about and critique. But simply bashing it is not the way to go.

edited 5th Nov '14 4:33:14 PM by JDTcreates

All of space and time, everything that ever was and could have been... and there's still nothing on tv
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8764: Nov 5th 2014 at 4:31:23 PM

[up][up][up]You probably only watched YYH's anime. That's okay though.

As for the villains: they're villains. Not every villain needs a sob story backstory. Frieza, Babidi and Bibidi are antagonistic because they're selfish. Cell and Buu want to destroy everything because that's what they were created for. King Piccolo is evil because he's the embodiment of all the evil in Kami and is a demon.

But sure, let's ignore the fact that Piccolo Jr., Vegeta and, the person you seem to love so much, Ten were all antagonists. Tell me, how deep a character is Rando? Is Suzaku multi-faceted?

[up][up]Nothing in-series states humans can't handle higher gravity. Ten and the lot were all okay standing on King Kai's planet, which is 10x the gravity of Earth's. If Ten really wanted to get strong, he'd call Bulma and ask her to let him train in her facilities. But that would require asking people for help and not being a stoic badass loner. Can't have that!

As for the Ro Sa T, Ten never trained inside it. He could whenever he chose, but never did. Likely for the same reason he never tried asking Bulma for help. Ten, even after his arc where he learned the value of humility, is still prideful as fuck, and that nearly got Goku killed against King Piccolo.

It's his pride that keeps him from getting stronger, and not him being human.

edited 5th Nov '14 4:31:43 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8765: Nov 5th 2014 at 4:32:25 PM

[up][up] Very well said. Too bad no one will listen. sad

edited 5th Nov '14 4:32:57 PM by FireShadow

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8766: Nov 5th 2014 at 4:42:16 PM

[up][up] Rando and Suzaku were one-note villains for like, five seconds. Toguro, Sensui and Yomi all had arcs built around them, same as Freeza, Cell and Buu.

I will concede on Piccolo Jr., that is a good point.

[up][up][up] DBZ is a guilty pleasure more or less. I won't deny I enjoy it but if I'm going to seriously debate what are well0written series and recommend them to people? Yeah, DB/DBZ will never be on my list.

Would it be on ANYONE's list? Honest answer - if you were looking at the recommendations thread and someone asked for a series with a fantastic, captivating storyline and multi-layered characters, would you recommend Dragonball?

Also you are ignoring the adverse effects DB has had on modern shounen, mainly the proliferation of one of the worst tropes ever conceived, the idiot Hero. In a gag series you might be able to get away with it but more serious shounen like Naruto and One Piece have tried it and it makes me completely detest their protagonists.

Quite frankly, I wish something like Rurouni Kenshin had inspired modern shounen instead of DB. Then we might get heroes who have, you know, experience. They don't just win their fights because HEROIC RESOLVE. (granted, even in this hypothetical world, modern shounen would still have to make up for how poorly used female characters were. That is one of RK's primary failings)

edited 5th Nov '14 4:45:27 PM by Nikkolas

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8767: Nov 5th 2014 at 4:49:55 PM

[up] How can you hate Monkey D Luffy? He's a great protagonist. And goes through a lot of emotional turmoil. Same with Naruto. Hell, Naruto's journey of developing himself literally lead to him battling the hatred within him physically.

JDTcreates J.D.T.creates from New York City Since: Aug, 2011
J.D.T.creates
#8768: Nov 5th 2014 at 5:09:05 PM

[up]The first saga of dragonball has a lot more time for all its characters and gives them plenty of moments to show off. Even Bulma and Master Roshi have the best moments, they have less in Z but that's because the home country doesn't separate the two nearly as much as overseas.

Also "Probably because Goku never loved Chi-Chi or Gohan". Because trying to strengthen you and your son to fight a being that will kill everyone but spending the one week the villain gives you to spend time with them possibly one last time = no love?

I'll admit giving him that giving Cell a Senzu bean in the name of sportsmanship was possibly his worst idea in the series but that's being to nice, not necessarily being an "idiot". Kenshin is a great series but it doesn't have that sense of adventure that Dragonball has (particularly the early days).

All of space and time, everything that ever was and could have been... and there's still nothing on tv
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8769: Nov 5th 2014 at 5:29:46 PM

.....

Staying out of this argument for the most part, but:

People like the fact that he was the first rival to actually give Goku a decent fight and respect that he's one of the few non-saiyan characters to who at least tries to avert Can't Catch Up.

Probably it. He busted out some crazy looking techniques, and came pretty close to legitimately beating Goku. He also flattened Master Roshi, who at that time was the strongest fighter in the world.....well flattened is an exaggeration truthfully. Roshi quit because he realized he couldn't win, something he didn't do with Goku.

It's funny but in a sense, Ten was cheated in that fight with Goku almost as much as Goku was. By winning in that way, he was left with doubts about whether he could actually beat Goku at all. Even though the latter did turn out to be stronger in the end, I think Ten still stood a bit of a chance before Goku drank the sacred water and trained with Kami.

But that may just be my inner fanboy talking.

I do still like Krillin though, it's just too bad his best technique is completely unusable from a meta perspective.

One Strip! One Strip!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8770: Nov 5th 2014 at 5:31:10 PM

[up][up] That moment when Goku gave Cell a senzu bean before her fought Gohan really put Goku's character into perspective. He may care greatly for his family and friends but at the same time he is a huge Blood Knight by default. Whenever he predicts a great battle could happen, those Blood Knight urges will always get the better of the him. Traits of that were shown practically shown in the first few chapters, but really started to kick in when the Piccolo Jr debuted. Old habits die hard.

[up] I always thought Krillin's Kienzan was useless against anyone who could regenerate. And that on practically any other character it's a One-Hit Kill, isn't it?

edited 5th Nov '14 5:39:24 PM by FireShadow

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8771: Nov 5th 2014 at 5:36:00 PM

Yeah, but he never gets to hit anyone with it.

And apparently, combining it with the Solar Flare wouldn't do any good too.

One Strip! One Strip!
JDTcreates J.D.T.creates from New York City Since: Aug, 2011
J.D.T.creates
#8772: Nov 5th 2014 at 5:41:37 PM

Tien is just one of the many characters from Dragonball who has great moves which don't get nearly enough screentime. But I guess that's why games like Xenoverse let you use moves like that we don't see again. And Dragonball Online establishing new versions of Martial Art Schools in the time-line.

It would be cool if more moves were shared with the new generation though. Roshi's bag of tricks would especially be great like his hypnosis or his lightning attack. Chiaotzu's telekinetic abilities too, though I'm not sure if they were unique to him and couldn't be taught...

All of space and time, everything that ever was and could have been... and there's still nothing on tv
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8773: Nov 5th 2014 at 5:42:30 PM

I think if Krillin learnt how to control the Kienzan it would be deadly technique. But then again Freeza able to do the exact same thing but that ended up being impractical. I personally think the Kienzan would be more useful if thrown at close range, rather than long range, which Krillin always seemed to do.

edited 5th Nov '14 5:43:07 PM by FireShadow

JDTcreates J.D.T.creates from New York City Since: Aug, 2011
J.D.T.creates
#8774: Nov 5th 2014 at 5:43:46 PM

[up]I mean Krillin never did that in the series because...honestly the only in-universe explaination I can think of is that he never thought of it because we all know it's mostly real world decisions.

All of space and time, everything that ever was and could have been... and there's still nothing on tv
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8775: Nov 5th 2014 at 5:44:34 PM

You mean maybe improve so that it's less a thrown weapon that can be dodged, and more a up close Laser Blade attack?

But that would require him to get up close, and he'd be slaughtered if the enemy even breathed on him.

Maybe he just needs to stop calling the name out.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!

Total posts: 130,800
Top