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DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#8726: Nov 4th 2014 at 8:56:59 PM

Tien also came in to Kai's planet with a much higher base power than Goku did. Unless what King Kai teaches can be taken as no more than a straight up addition of power, 8,000 is a hella low estimate.

Also, keep in mind that basic training was about all the Z-fighters had when they went from power levels around the 200s to levels approaching 2000 in the year before the Saiyans arrived, unless you count filler.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8727: Nov 4th 2014 at 8:59:36 PM

[up][up]As someone who likes Krillin, I admit it's hard to argue against this.

I think Tien would have been the strongest if not for the Guru power-up.

That being said, Guru died, so that's not ever gonna happen for him.

I mean, he didn't even learn Kaioken. Sure, it wouldn't do anything, but still. His time on King Kai's planet was essentially a waste.

Then again, Krillin's Guru power up was somewhat of a waste as well. I mean, it sure didn't keep him from dying in the end.tongue

edited 4th Nov '14 9:00:09 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8728: Nov 4th 2014 at 9:01:03 PM

I got nothing against Krillin, it's Toriyama's writing ability (or lack threof) that is the problem here.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8729: Nov 4th 2014 at 9:03:03 PM

Fair enough.

It was mentioned before that maybe instead of keeping around these characters he had no clue what to do with, he should have put them away.

There are lots of things Toriyama could have done. Some would say there are things he should have done, but all we can do is speculate.

One Strip! One Strip!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#8730: Nov 4th 2014 at 9:05:40 PM

Krillin wouldn't be third-strongest behind Ginyu and Frieza. King Cold is presumably somewhere between Ginyu and Frieza, making Krillin fourth-strongest.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8731: Nov 4th 2014 at 9:17:44 PM

In the space between Raditz and the Saiyans, they were training at God's Lookout, not just sparring with each other. They were directly trained by God, which is a higher class of training than just sparring with Chiaotzu in the mountains somewhere - just like how being trained by Kaio-sama is a higher class of training. Basic training only got Tien to 250; he had supernatural entities helping him with the rest.

The best training Tien ever received was his training in 10x gravity under Kaio-sama, the same training that put Goku at 8,000, which utterly pales in comparison to Goku's 100x gravity training on his way to Namek, which put Goku at a power level of 90,000. To suggest that Tien's training in 10x gravity got him anywhere near 75,000 is absolutely ludicrous, and to suggest that he closed the gap by doing weaker forms of training is even moreso.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8732: Nov 4th 2014 at 9:23:33 PM

There's nothing supernatural about Kami, he's just a slugman and Chaotzu is stronger than him.

As for supernaturalness, the little guy hasn't aged a day all through the series.

DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#8733: Nov 4th 2014 at 9:36:57 PM

Goku was more equipped to handle 100x gravity after Kai's training, and the humans were more equipped to handle Kai's training after Kami's training. You're suggesting that a certain number (8,000) was a "cap" for a certain type of training, which has never been the way training works in Dragon Ball. Compare Goku's gains training under Kami to those of the humans.

Furthermore, if Tien is at < 20,000, that means the gap between his battle power and ultimate attack is ludicrously large. Like if Cui knew the Kikoho, he could have stood a chance against Frieza. Like if Tien could even slightly affect Cell with his Kikoho at a power lower than Ginyu's, why the hell couldn't he have killed Piccolo during the Daimao saga or Nappa?

edited 4th Nov '14 9:38:48 PM by DoctorDiabolical

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8734: Nov 5th 2014 at 1:13:27 AM

Kuririn is sure as shit a better character than Ten. Just because he doesn't win many fights doesn't change that he gets to do stuff in every arc (except the Daimao arc, where he's dead). And hell, unlike Ten, he even has a character. He's not some super tough guy but he's likeable which is far more important. Ten a shit.

[up][up] He is literally a God. Being an alien doesn't change that, aliens can also become Gods. He has supernatural powers like restoring Chaozu's body, restoring the moon, and ferrying souls to the afterlife.

[up] That's not how it works at all. His Kikoho didn't damage Cell, hell it didn't damage Nappa. If it could actually hurt Cell he'd have used it on 17 and 18 to instantly win - because he did no training in the 3 days between getting his ass handed to him by the Androids and stalling Cell. He outright says he can do "nothing" to the Androids. The technique simply doesn't work that way. Again, base Trunks could throw Imperfect Cell from the city to a field with a kiai. Not even an energy attack. Yet this same Trunks is inferior to Perfect Cell even as a Super Saiyan, a 50x power up, and nowhere near as strong as Imperfect Cell without it.

And that's not what Tobias was suggesting at all. He's suggesting that it makes no sense for Ten to outdo Goku's gain in far inferior training. The stronger you are, the better training you need to get even stronger. So Goku got ~20x stronger because he'd never done anything like that before and he was only 416 when he started. Ten started out stronger, but that means (percentage wise) he'd get less out of it.

Even if Ten got 20x out of the training himself, he'd be fucking useless. A battle power of ~36,000 would do nothing in the Android arc. Even if he became 200x stronger, he'd be irrelevant. It'd take him getting 2,000x stronger to surpass base Goku from Namek, and maybe be around the base Saiyans of the Androids arc except whoops those Saiyans are now like 10x stronger from the RoSaT.

Ten is so far off being relevant it's a joke. But hey, even when his battle power was a lot closer like pre-Raditz, he was still useless as seen where he gets beat up by Drum and he can't even gang up on a half dead Piccolo Junior.

edited 5th Nov '14 1:16:25 AM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8735: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:23:10 AM

It still kind of really disheartening how it doesn't matter how much you train in this series, you still won't amount to shit unless you got good genes.

edited 5th Nov '14 3:23:26 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8736: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:58:31 AM

Hard work will never in fiction. Even series that try to make examples of that instead make characters gifted (see: the main humans, they easily outdid the previous generation without working harder) which flies completely in the face of that.

Actual hard work working would mean a character does something that literally any other person could do, in the same amount of time, with the same results. So either they're not going to be impressive or everyone else is going to look like an idiot for not doing that.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8737: Nov 5th 2014 at 7:35:21 AM

Keep in mind that the average power levels of the universe consider 30,000 - 60,000 to be freakishly, nigh-unattainably high. The Ginyu Force are comprised of the most powerful non-Frieza entities in the universe, while fighters with levels like Vegeta's original 18,000 are considered planet-killers.

The Saiyans - and Piccolo - didn't just outgrow the humans, they outgrew the entire universe AND the gods that govern that universe, to the point where a god-killing abomination was required to challenge them. Being able to become Super Saiyans - and, in Piccolo's case, Namekian Fusion and its far more broken mechanics - but the Saiyans' much more intense training than anything the humans do was also a major factor.

Hard work can amount to quite a lot in this series; all of the protagonists, even Vegeta once he got humiliated by Goku's growth, worked very hard to become what they did. That no amount of hard work will ever allow most people to attain Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta levels of power isn't really a sleight against hard work, because Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta are so far beyond abnormal it's not even funny.

Krillin surpassed Tien by having a magical being awaken his hidden power, the same reason why Nail freakishly outclasses the entire rest of his planet. He's Earth's Nail. Tien's inability to catch up isn't a consequence of not working hard enough; he's got plenty of training work ethic, he just wastes it on Mountain Training. He'd probably be welcome to try a Gravity Chamber like Goku and Vegeta did - he wouldn't zenkai from it, but it would still give him far better results - but he doesn't because he's antisocial.

Tien, meanwhile, surpassed literally every human who has ever existed before him, Yamcha, and Krillin, and outclassed God. That's pretty impressive, and a far cry from not amounting to shit. Tien isn't up to Krillin's magically-empowered par, but as combat ability goes he's still pretty f*cking incredible by human standards; he just doesn't get to show off very often because he shares a sandbox with the strongest warriors in the entire universe.

edited 5th Nov '14 7:55:50 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8738: Nov 5th 2014 at 8:03:35 AM

Yeah, Sayians were ridiculous outliers in terms of powerlevels. Heck Frieeza already were being thousand times more powerfull than the strongest of his men (who was already absurdly strong compared to other people) and the Sayians surpassed him by far.

That's actually one of few things I liked about GT, the universe felt like big place again instead of a small pond.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8739: Nov 5th 2014 at 8:05:47 AM

To be fair to freeza, the only way the Saiyans surpassed was by unlocking an extremely broken power up.

Seriously, Super Saiyan is some shit. 50x your base power level, and it's got two more levels beyond that.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8740: Nov 5th 2014 at 8:18:12 AM

Super Saiyan is nice and all, but what really beat Frieza was the plainly ridiculous zenkais that Goku and Vegeta received.

Goku's Gravity Chamber zenkais took him from 8,000 to 90,000 in six days, and his subsequent zenkai on Namek brought him to 3,000,000. That is an insane growth rate. Had Goku become a Super Saiyan with the power he brought to Namek, his power level would be a mere 4.5 million, and Frieza would have effortlessly curbstomped him without even needing to go to 50% power. Had he not even gotten his Gravity Chamber zenkais, he'd be looking at a paltry 400,000 - far in excess of Captain Ginyu, certainly, but even Frieza's first form would have no trouble dominating this pathetic monkey while laughing to himself about why he ever thought a Super Saiyan was something to fear.

The Goku that fought Vegeta on Earth, even as a Super Saiyan 3, would only barely surpass the power level of the Base Goku that fought Freiza. While it's true that the Saiyans having a broken power-up is the reason why they were able to beat Frieza, Super Saiyan is often Mis-blamed for being that power-up; it was ridiculously out-of-control zenkais that made them a threat; Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation was merely the icing on the "Flagrant abuse of racial bonuses" cake.

As Saiga's fond of pointing out, Namek is where power levels escalated so far out of control that anyone who wasn't an alien ceased to have anything of value to offer in combat, and more than any specific Saiyan ability, you really just have Frieza's needlessly high power level to blame for that. The gap between Frieza and Ginyu - or, hell, even between Frieza and other forms of Frieza - is so utterly ridiculous as to require similarly stupid, broken power-ups to compensate.

So Namek wound up being a candyland of insane power boosts. The Saiyans got zenkais and Super Saiyan, Piccolo got Namekian Fusion which is arguably even more broken than zenkais, and Krillin and Dende both got their Hidden Potential unlocked. Tien and Yamcha, sadly, missed that boat and didn't even get to come home with the Kaioken for their troubles.

edited 5th Nov '14 8:29:01 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8741: Nov 5th 2014 at 8:38:44 AM

Goku power increased 33 times with one zenkai - you can't explain that.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8742: Nov 5th 2014 at 8:47:34 AM

So it's actually zenkai's that are bullshit.

Vegeta was wrong!

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8743: Nov 5th 2014 at 8:50:34 AM

Also if zenkais are so OP why didn't they just spend time shooting each other and healing themselves to increase their power? Which is totally a valid strategy and something Vegeta once did.

MikeBreezy92 Storm King Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Noddin' my head like yeah
Storm King
#8744: Nov 5th 2014 at 8:59:03 AM

they start to cap out however eventually.

youtube.com/Fire Trainer 92
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8745: Nov 5th 2014 at 9:06:30 AM

That's more or less exactly what Goku's Gravity Chamber training was, albeit totally by accident. The reason he got to 90,000 in six days is because he kept wrecking his body from massive overtraining, then popping a Senzu Bean and enjoying that sweet, sweet zenkai he didn't realize existed.

IIRC, I think there was a Word of God that said nobody ever got a zenkai after Namek because they capped out or something. It was basically an Author's Saving Throw against the flagrant abuse of zenkai on Namek.

edited 5th Nov '14 9:07:39 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8746: Nov 5th 2014 at 9:15:49 AM

"Kuririn is sure as shit a better character than Ten. Just because he doesn't win many fights doesn't change that he gets to do stuff in every arc (except the Daimao arc, where he's dead). And hell, unlike Ten, he even has a character. He's not some super tough guy but he's likeable which is far more important. Ten a shit."

I'm pretty sure Tien is likable, as evidenced by the fact several people in this thread like him.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8747: Nov 5th 2014 at 9:23:41 AM

Slightly off-topic, but this is apparently a thing:

Hi, people of this community. From “Dragon Ball 2nd Epoque” (a page from Facebook) we want to call for purposing a project for share to whole community of Dragon Ball in the world.

As we all know, the 30th anniversary of Dragon Ball is coming. Three decades ago sensei Toriyama created these series that so many joys it has given to us. As an appreciation, we had created an unique project.

It consists in gathering all the Dragon Ball’s fandom communities of the world to congratulate all together this 30th anniversary. All we together in the same project. In this activity, we want to contact with every sites, forums, communities, and, even, with all existing fan projects on the web which can draw an image congratulating the birthday of our beloved manga. Therefore, the websites, forums and communities will be able to create an image or an illustration in which they can congratulate the 30th Dragon Ball’s birthday.

On the other hand, artists will be able to draw an illustration by doing the same, can even use their fan characters-manga also to congratulate the 30th Dragon Ball’s birthday.

In order or being all together, we have created a logo under the title of "Dragon Ball 30th Anniversary Project", which will be put in each image and illustration. Therefore, everybody will be participating under the same feeling. We will be all units within the same project.

The team of "Dragon Ball 2nd Epoque" wants to keep in touch with all the websites and forums that we know, as well as with all projects and artists fan-art we can.

Besides the image, the project is open to all types of articles, essays, videos, photos and anything that you want to enter in this tribute. Therefore, any idea that you can make will be greatly welcome. Also, you can contribute with whatever you want. It would be nice to choose a logo and use it on the project that we are making all together.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8748: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:14:24 PM

People like Ten's character type. What can you say about Ten's character? He's the Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy archetype, but Vegeta shows up and is infinitely better at that role than he is. Stoic badass? Piccolo stole that from him, and manages to actually keep the "badass" half of it. Rival? Lol, Piccolo and then Vegeta.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8749: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:20:04 PM

People like the fact that he was the first rival to actually give Goku a decent fight and respect that he's one of the few non-saiyan characters to who at least tries to avert Can't Catch Up.

Tien isn't exactly a favorite a mine, but I can see why people like him and why they'd assume he'd be stronger than Krillin based solely on each character leads their lives.

edited 5th Nov '14 3:21:12 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8750: Nov 5th 2014 at 3:21:46 PM

Vegeta is an awful character and a great symbol of what a shitty writer Toriyama is.

HE MURDERED THE ONLY GUY BULMA HAS BEEN WITH THE ENTIRE SERIES AND SHE INVITES HIM TO LIVE WITH HER WITHOUT HESITATION.

Fuck off, Toriyama, just fuck off.

Tien had a great arc in the 22nd Tournament, he was the first villain to be redeemed. People respected how he started off on the wrong path but wanted an honorable fight with Goku so much that he shrugged off his evil mentor's ways.

Plus as [up] said, he never gave up, no matter what. Yamcha gave up, Krillin gave up, Tien was always striving to improve himself. People respect that.

edited 5th Nov '14 3:25:07 PM by Nikkolas


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