No of course they aren't.
They're arguing about whether Vegeta was a ego-driven hot-headed asshat who trained hard, or disdained training completely.
We gotta be accurate on these things.
That.
We're arguing whether Vegeta's power level at the time of the Saiyan Saga is due to his being born a super-elite and having a naturally high power, or if it's the product of hard work and diligent training.
We're further arguing whether Vegeta is a soldier who operates with military precision and logical estimates, or if he's an ego-driven asshat who overblows his own power and automatically assumes anyone not named Vegeta is automatically weaker than him.
I am of the opinion that the answer to both of these questions is incredibly obvious, but Cruherrx could probably claim the same; it wouldn't be a debate if we were in agreement, after all.
edited 16th Sep '14 3:31:54 PM by TobiasDrake
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edited 17th Sep '14 1:21:46 AM by Rinsankajugin
Vegeta is a proud warrior prince of a warrior race, of which there exists classes. He is of the highest class, is utterly ruthless, and takes delight in battle. Of course he would believe that Goku, no matter how hard he trained, would never be able to match him. He had been a warrior all his life, while Goku, again, grew up on a planet considered weak enough for a weak Saiyan to conquer.
No, that is exactly the context I'm taking it in.
Vegeta is a super-elite, while Goku is third-rate garbage. Vegeta believes it impossible for any amount of training to close the gap between Goku's worthless genes and Vegeta's spectacular genes. He feels that, by virtue of his birth, he is automatically stronger than anything Goku could ever hope to compare to. It's not Earth that Vegeta thinks made Goku weak; Goku was sent to Earth because he is weak.
People keep bringing that up, as if the only way a person ever grows stronger as they grow up is through training. Any adult, even one that has never lifted a single weight in his entire life, can beat an infant at arm wrestling. Vegeta's power grew with maturity as all living things do.
Of course Vegeta was off doing missions during childhood. That's what Saiyans do. They start killing planets at infancy, and then keep killing planets from there. Vegeta is no exception.
But again, the point is that Goku isn't supposed to be weak because he was sent to Earth; Goku was sent to Earth because he's supposed to be weak. Vegeta outright explains this. Saiyans are measured at infancy, and Goku was tossed out to a planet with a spectacularly low power level because he was determined to be garbage.
Your own linked pages demonstrate Vegeta boasting about getting his ass kicked on Earth, specifically. He never says, "And then there was that time I lost that fight on Kurlia, and the Darturans put me through the ringer...."
All he says is, "I get TRASHED on Earth and now my power is awesome!"
It's not less noble. It's a difference of attitude.
Goku believes in working hard to raise his power level, then fighting hard battles. Vegeta believes in fighting hard battles and, on what he considers, the unlikely, near impossible scenario where he doesn't win, his power suddenly skyrockets and he comes back for another go. The distinction between the two is that Goku believes that greatness can only be achieved through hard work and effort, while Vegeta believes greatness is something he already has, and happens to have a special racial bonus that lets him keep believing that even when someone makes him eat his own words.
Vegeta doesn't train. He just gets stronger when he loses fights, and comes back and wins and tells himself it's because of how great he is.
He only wanted them dead after he found out how strong Goku actually is. He agreed to give them time to let Goku get there in the first place because he's an egotist. If he'd been doing things efficiently, with military precision, Gohan and Krillin would have been dead long before Goku ever had the chance to get there, while Piccolo would be crippled and the two Saiyans would already have begun searching for the Dragon Balls.
The only reason the Saibamen even got to fight at all is because Vegeta and Nappa were treating the whole thing like a game.
I said Goku did training AND zenkais. Yes, training with Kaio raised him to 8,000 - NOT 5,000 - and also taught him the Kaioken, a technique which proved incredibly value in the Saiyan and Namek arcs. He received exactly four zenkais during his Gravity Training on the way to Namek which helped his power immensely, and another ridiculously great zenkai after Captain Ginyu that moved him up to 3 million. But the fact that he was even a match for Vegeta to begin with was the product of the incredible training he put in over the course of his life.
Vegeta, on the other hand, yes, he DID rely on zenkai. Zenkai is the only reason he was even a match for Dodoria. If he'd come to Namek with the 18,000 he had on Earth, he would have died a pointless, anticlimactic death and the Ginyu Force would never have been called in. Zenkai is the entire reason Vegeta was relevant on Namek. There was not a single ounce of training between his fight with Goku and his fight with Frieza; none of his gains were deliberate, with the exception of the time he made Krillin blast him. The rest were all zenkai.
Vegeta doubting Goku could scratch him is logical to assume given their respective positions and histories, is the point.
He gave himself over to it because his pride was shattered by Goku first defeating him, then surpassing him. He took Goku's whole "hard work lets you beat up elites!" thing to heart because Goku beat it into him and then humiliated him by becoming the Legendary Super Saiyan.
As for how he knows ki techniques, Goku mastered the Kamehameha by watching Kamesennin do it once and then imitating it. Vegeta learned that ki sensing is a thing by finding out the Earthlings could do it and then immediately mastering it on his trip to Namek. Saiyans learn things at a ridiculously fast pace.
Even in early Dragonball, Goku would often get beat to near-death by an adversary, then come back stronger than them for round 2: Zenkai boosts. Goku grasp techniques faster than those around him: also a Saiyan trait. Goku is immune to gunfire: also a Saiyan trait.
Kamesennin and Krillin are also immune to gunfire. They were both shot repeatedly by Lunch.
And no, Goku would not come back stronger for Round 2 just because he healed up stronger. Goku would be beat to near-death, do awesome training, THEN come back stronger. For instance:
- Yamcha. Goku was hungry when they fought the first time, and then he ate, and then he beat Yamcha.
- Tao Pai Pai. Goku was beaten to near death, then climbed Karin's Tower, trained with Karin, then came back and beat Tao Pai Pai.
- Piccolo Daimao. Goku was beaten to near death, then met God, drank the magic water that unlocks your power, then used his newly unlocked power to defeat Piccolo Daimao.
Goku's Saiyan blood let him advance in his training faster than the humans do, and he outpaced them pretty quickly due to attaining stronger training earlier than they did, with them often just trailing his results and doing the training he did at a later date, but he still put in a lot of time training. His power rose as a consequence of that.
Up until Namek, it was never as simple as him just being beaten, healing back stronger, and then winning. That is, however, how Vegeta rolled on Namek.
Again, no, they did not. This is completely wrong.
Dodoria and Cui relied on energy blasts and distractions the two times they fought Vegeta, because they're cowards. Zarbon manhandled him with brute force, as did Recoome who only used one ki attack in their entire fight. Burter and Captain Ginyu also relied on melee combat, while Jeice had one ki attack that he used only when Goku was making them desperate
Frieza's men are not all overreliant on ki attacks. And again, there is no indication that Vegeta was ever trained to fight, or that Saiyans being trained to fight is even a thing. Saiyans are sent to kill planets from infancy with no training, no maturity, and no experience, and then they sink or swim. That is how Saiyans operate.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I know he calls himself that just to sneak into the World Martial Arts Tournament. Is that "Teen" Piccolo?
My various fanfics.Ma Junior, or Demon Junior, was Piccolo's Paper-Thin Disguise when he entered the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai in order to avoid revealing to the crowd that he was Piccolo Daimao.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Dragon Ball Xenoverse PS4 Gameplay
Still looks pretty damn good considering it's an alpha build. One side note the stages look huge.

Why? I've already called the Cell Saga a Dork Age AND harshly criticized Future Trunks for being a Unique and Special Snowflake; obviously I am not concerned with being in line with the popular opinion.
People like the Bardock special. Even Akira Toriyama likes the Bardock special. But it's still filler at best and one of the non-canon movies at worst.
edited 16th Sep '14 9:10:51 AM by Tobiasdrake
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