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Tobiasdrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8226: Sep 16th 2014 at 9:06:02 AM

You might wanna throw out your critique of the Bardock special since doing so only strengthens my argument though. I'll get to the rest later.

Why? I've already called the Cell Saga a Dork Age AND harshly criticized Future Trunks for being a Unique and Special Snowflake; obviously I am not concerned with being in line with the popular opinion.

People like the Bardock special. Even Akira Toriyama likes the Bardock special. But it's still filler at best and one of the non-canon movies at worst.

edited 16th Sep '14 9:10:51 AM by Tobiasdrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8227: Sep 16th 2014 at 9:12:18 AM

Are you guys really arguing whatever Vegeta was ego-driven hot-headed asshat?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8228: Sep 16th 2014 at 3:00:38 PM

No of course they aren't.

They're arguing about whether Vegeta was a ego-driven hot-headed asshat who trained hard, or disdained training completely.

We gotta be accurate on these things.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8229: Sep 16th 2014 at 3:29:47 PM

[up] That.

We're arguing whether Vegeta's power level at the time of the Saiyan Saga is due to his being born a super-elite and having a naturally high power, or if it's the product of hard work and diligent training.

We're further arguing whether Vegeta is a soldier who operates with military precision and logical estimates, or if he's an ego-driven asshat who overblows his own power and automatically assumes anyone not named Vegeta is automatically weaker than him.

I am of the opinion that the answer to both of these questions is incredibly obvious, but Cruherrx could probably claim the same; it wouldn't be a debate if we were in agreement, after all.

edited 16th Sep '14 3:31:54 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8230: Sep 16th 2014 at 3:35:27 PM

Reply made. Go check the previous page.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8232: Sep 17th 2014 at 1:48:49 AM

[up] Oh, that's awesome. Really glad to see these all included, and that Online's concepts aren't going to die in a game most people haven't ever experienced.

I don't necessarily like the concepts, but at least I'll be able to experience them first hand now.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#8233: Sep 17th 2014 at 6:27:41 AM

New Xenoverse trailer and gameplay coming in a couple of days. Anything you guys expecting or wanting from this game?

Mewtwo, Ridley, and K. Rool.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8234: Sep 17th 2014 at 11:07:01 AM

You're taking that quote out of context, or trying to twist it to suit your needs. Let's put it back into context, shall we?

Vegeta is a proud warrior prince of a warrior race, of which there exists classes. He is of the highest class, is utterly ruthless, and takes delight in battle. Of course he would believe that Goku, no matter how hard he trained, would never be able to match him. He had been a warrior all his life, while Goku, again, grew up on a planet considered weak enough for a weak Saiyan to conquer.

No, that is exactly the context I'm taking it in.

Vegeta is a super-elite, while Goku is third-rate garbage. Vegeta believes it impossible for any amount of training to close the gap between Goku's worthless genes and Vegeta's spectacular genes. He feels that, by virtue of his birth, he is automatically stronger than anything Goku could ever hope to compare to. It's not Earth that Vegeta thinks made Goku weak; Goku was sent to Earth because he is weak.

Okay, if we're doing that... Vegeta mentions having surpassed his father when he was a child. Not "I was born stronger than him, " or "I was gifted power greater than his, " but "I already surpassed◊ the king as a child.◊"

People keep bringing that up, as if the only way a person ever grows stronger as they grow up is through training. Any adult, even one that has never lifted a single weight in his entire life, can beat an infant at arm wrestling. Vegeta's power grew with maturity as all living things do.

From Jaco, we know Vegeta was off doing missions since childhood, and doing them successfully.◊ Relevant to mention since it's implied humanity is one of the weakest races out there, so it's more logical to assume that the race he and Raditz wiped out were at the very least more dangerous than what Goku was assigned to deal with. What this means is it is extremely logical for Vegeta to think of Goku as utterly inferior to him, and that the difference between them wouldn't be made up with just training.

Of course Vegeta was off doing missions during childhood. That's what Saiyans do. They start killing planets at infancy, and then keep killing planets from there. Vegeta is no exception.

But again, the point is that Goku isn't supposed to be weak because he was sent to Earth; Goku was sent to Earth because he's supposed to be weak. Vegeta outright explains this. Saiyans are measured at infancy, and Goku was tossed out to a planet with a spectacularly low power level because he was determined to be garbage.

Nnnnnnnope. Note here he says situations.◊ What he's saying there is while he was off constantly endanger in his life in combat (re: just as useful as training, and nothing to be looked down upon), Cui was getting fat behind Frieza. It's a notion he echoes here◊ too. Then we have later Dragonball showing just how insane Vegeta's training is. He very clearly believes in the merit of hard work. What he didn't believe was that a low class' hard work would ever be able to equal his.

Your own linked pages demonstrate Vegeta boasting about getting his ass kicked on Earth, specifically. He never says, "And then there was that time I lost that fight on Kurlia, and the Darturans put me through the ringer...."

All he says is, "I get TRASHED on Earth and now my power is awesome!"

That is a pointless distinction. How does Vegeta get his zenkais? By fighting people stronger than him and risking his life. Why is this less noble than training?

It's not less noble. It's a difference of attitude.

Goku believes in working hard to raise his power level, then fighting hard battles. Vegeta believes in fighting hard battles and, on what he considers, the unlikely, near impossible scenario where he doesn't win, his power suddenly skyrockets and he comes back for another go. The distinction between the two is that Goku believes that greatness can only be achieved through hard work and effort, while Vegeta believes greatness is something he already has, and happens to have a special racial bonus that lets him keep believing that even when someone makes him eat his own words.

Vegeta doesn't train. He just gets stronger when he loses fights, and comes back and wins and tells himself it's because of how great he is.

Except Vegeta is more than 3x as strong as Nappa, and at best, Goku only showed power that was only a little over 2x as strong. Vegeta had 0 reason to take him as a serious threat to him. As for sparing Goku's friends, no he did want them dead.◊ Nappa was just inefficient. I feel like what I've said above adequately addresses the rest of your points, so I see no reason to endlessly restate things.

He only wanted them dead after he found out how strong Goku actually is. He agreed to give them time to let Goku get there in the first place because he's an egotist. If he'd been doing things efficiently, with military precision, Gohan and Krillin would have been dead long before Goku ever had the chance to get there, while Piccolo would be crippled and the two Saiyans would already have begun searching for the Dragon Balls.

The only reason the Saibamen even got to fight at all is because Vegeta and Nappa were treating the whole thing like a game.

You sure do like jumping through hoops to justify Goku's stuff while denigrating Vegeta. Goku only got to 90k because of Zenkais. Months with Kai and his power level capped out at 5000, but four days in space training by himself and his power level jumps to 90k? No, ◊ no.◊ Zenkai clearly did the bulk of his improvement, and it was something he abused with Senzu Beans and injuring himself. Vegeta only once in the entire story depends on the Zenkai, and it was against Frieza when he had Krillin shoot him.

I said Goku did training AND zenkais. Yes, training with Kaio raised him to 8,000 - NOT 5,000 - and also taught him the Kaioken, a technique which proved incredibly value in the Saiyan and Namek arcs. He received exactly four zenkais during his Gravity Training on the way to Namek which helped his power immensely, and another ridiculously great zenkai after Captain Ginyu that moved him up to 3 million. But the fact that he was even a match for Vegeta to begin with was the product of the incredible training he put in over the course of his life.

Vegeta, on the other hand, yes, he DID rely on zenkai. Zenkai is the only reason he was even a match for Dodoria. If he'd come to Namek with the 18,000 he had on Earth, he would have died a pointless, anticlimactic death and the Ginyu Force would never have been called in. Zenkai is the entire reason Vegeta was relevant on Namek. There was not a single ounce of training between his fight with Goku and his fight with Frieza; none of his gains were deliberate, with the exception of the time he made Krillin blast him. The rest were all zenkai.

Really, if Vegeta was so averse to training and hard work as you make it seem, why on Earth would he so completely give himself over to it in later arcs (re: the ones immediately after Namek). If Vegeta didn't believe in hard work or training, how would he even have a basic grasp on ki and how to use it? Your logic just doesn't hold up here.

Vegeta doubting Goku could scratch him is logical to assume given their respective positions and histories, is the point.

He gave himself over to it because his pride was shattered by Goku first defeating him, then surpassing him. He took Goku's whole "hard work lets you beat up elites!" thing to heart because Goku beat it into him and then humiliated him by becoming the Legendary Super Saiyan.

As for how he knows ki techniques, Goku mastered the Kamehameha by watching Kamesennin do it once and then imitating it. Vegeta learned that ki sensing is a thing by finding out the Earthlings could do it and then immediately mastering it on his trip to Namek. Saiyans learn things at a ridiculously fast pace.

No, that's an outright lie. The most important reason Goku is as strong as he is is because he's a Saiyan. Let's look at characters without the Saiyan/alien bonuses: Yamcha, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Chiatzou, Roshi etc.

Even in early Dragonball, Goku would often get beat to near-death by an adversary, then come back stronger than them for round 2: Zenkai boosts. Goku grasp techniques faster than those around him: also a Saiyan trait. Goku is immune to gunfire: also a Saiyan trait.

Kamesennin and Krillin are also immune to gunfire. They were both shot repeatedly by Lunch.

And no, Goku would not come back stronger for Round 2 just because he healed up stronger. Goku would be beat to near-death, do awesome training, THEN come back stronger. For instance:

  • Yamcha. Goku was hungry when they fought the first time, and then he ate, and then he beat Yamcha.
  • Tao Pai Pai. Goku was beaten to near death, then climbed Karin's Tower, trained with Karin, then came back and beat Tao Pai Pai.
  • Piccolo Daimao. Goku was beaten to near death, then met God, drank the magic water that unlocks your power, then used his newly unlocked power to defeat Piccolo Daimao.

Goku's Saiyan blood let him advance in his training faster than the humans do, and he outpaced them pretty quickly due to attaining stronger training earlier than they did, with them often just trailing his results and doing the training he did at a later date, but he still put in a lot of time training. His power rose as a consequence of that.

Up until Namek, it was never as simple as him just being beaten, healing back stronger, and then winning. That is, however, how Vegeta rolled on Namek.

As for Vegeta's fighting methods: just look at the Namek Arc. All of Frieza's men resort to ki blasts. They depend heavily on it. That's how Vegeta was trained to fight. It stuck with him. And as silly as it may be to you that he always falls back to it, it's a legitimate real life strategy and it's also known soldiers/law enforcement instinctively fall back on their training, whether it proves right or wrong in whatever situation triggered it.

Again, no, they did not. This is completely wrong.

Dodoria and Cui relied on energy blasts and distractions the two times they fought Vegeta, because they're cowards. Zarbon manhandled him with brute force, as did Recoome who only used one ki attack in their entire fight. Burter and Captain Ginyu also relied on melee combat, while Jeice had one ki attack that he used only when Goku was making them desperate

Frieza's men are not all overreliant on ki attacks. And again, there is no indication that Vegeta was ever trained to fight, or that Saiyans being trained to fight is even a thing. Saiyans are sent to kill planets from infancy with no training, no maturity, and no experience, and then they sink or swim. That is how Saiyans operate.

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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#8235: Sep 17th 2014 at 11:38:28 AM

I forget, why does Teen Piccolo refer to himself as Ma Junior? I just wondering because that's the name they gave that character in Dragon Ball Heroes, and it's been a loooong time since I've heard of that name.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
EndlessSea LEGENDARY GALE from oh no you don't Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
LEGENDARY GALE
#8237: Sep 17th 2014 at 12:13:48 PM

It's Demon Junior, except Demon is switched for the Japanese term.

...I think.

but HOW?
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#8238: Sep 17th 2014 at 12:29:46 PM

I know he calls himself that just to sneak into the World Martial Arts Tournament. Is that "Teen" Piccolo?

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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#8239: Sep 17th 2014 at 12:36:55 PM

Yeah, he's playable in DBH now. He even has his giant form as a transformation.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8240: Sep 17th 2014 at 12:39:50 PM

Ma Junior, or Demon Junior, was Piccolo's Paper-Thin Disguise when he entered the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai in order to avoid revealing to the crowd that he was Piccolo Daimao.

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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#8241: Sep 17th 2014 at 3:23:58 PM

It's odd how Piccolo keeps around that turban years after his disguise was found out. I guess he thought it was a cool hat.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#8242: Sep 18th 2014 at 2:14:16 AM

New scan in V-Jump confirms Mira, Towa and the Changeling option, as well as the Time Kaioshin and Tokitoki:

It even shows one of the scenes in the game, where Raditz escapes Goku's full-nelson and only Goku dies.

. . .

Wait wut...

edited 18th Sep '14 2:15:00 AM by Rinsankajugin

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8243: Sep 18th 2014 at 2:36:49 AM

Aww shit yes, divergence what-ifs. I've been waiting for them for a long time.

Mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#8244: Sep 18th 2014 at 3:16:16 AM

Awesome. I wonder if you can have a direct influence on these what if scenarios. That would be awesome, and you could potentially be the biggest butthat in all of DB.

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8245: Sep 18th 2014 at 5:27:59 AM

Dragon Ball Xenoverse PS4 Gameplay

Still looks pretty damn good considering it's an alpha build. One side note the stages look huge.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#8246: Sep 18th 2014 at 9:28:32 AM

Got quite some info on this game. Once the next trailer hits, should we start making a page for it?

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#8247: Sep 18th 2014 at 10:02:23 AM

This game looks amazing. I don't have a console it's being released on, but my brother does and may purchase it.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#8248: Sep 18th 2014 at 11:09:43 AM

Dragon Ball Heroes: Attack of the Biomen

This is why Gero, Myuu and Raichi were hanging out with Kochin.

edited 18th Sep '14 11:10:51 AM by Rinsankajugin

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8249: Sep 18th 2014 at 11:50:23 AM

More Xenoverse Gameplay

Nothing substantial, just wanted to share it.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#8250: Sep 18th 2014 at 12:03:53 PM

I'm not sure what Kid Gohan's ultimate is, but it looks cool. All swooshy and stuff.

edited 18th Sep '14 12:04:04 PM by Rinsankajugin


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