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Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8201: Sep 12th 2014 at 9:24:15 PM

What.

Vegeta isn't "entitled". He trained his ass off since he was a kid and asked to go on dangerous missions. Then when he sees someone, a low-class, that lived a comparatively peaceful life on Earth being stronger than him: well I'd say that gives him a right to be pissed. And his anger is straight up self-loathing.

Anyway, the Namek arc showed it better than any other the difference between Earth fighters and space ones. Space warriors prefer Ki since it's far more lethal than punching and kicking. When fighting and war serve as your livelihood, you have to be efficient at it.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#8202: Sep 12th 2014 at 10:36:28 PM

Except Goku wasn't any where close to being stronger than Vegeta.

Vegeta went from 10,000 to 16,000(I believe)...Goku at the time of fighting Vegeta was only Half of that and only due to King Kai's training. Vegeta was furious because he lost, not because Goku was stronger.

edited 12th Sep '14 10:37:27 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#8203: Sep 13th 2014 at 12:49:14 PM

[up]If we're talking about Vegeta->Namek, he went from 18,000 to around/just over 22,000, I think.

edited 13th Sep '14 12:50:11 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8205: Sep 13th 2014 at 5:30:51 PM

I like that.

I do wonder if 18 has seen her brother at all since the Cell series.

I mean, the last time she sees him in canon is when Cell is eating him for dinner. That's pretty messed up.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8206: Sep 13th 2014 at 5:40:04 PM

Since Rob brought it up: how did the Androids fit inside Cell? At first I thought they kind of dissolved after being absorbed, but then Gohan hit him and med him throw up 18 in one piece. Weird.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#8207: Sep 13th 2014 at 5:43:45 PM

[up][up][up] Is it me, or does Lapis look like Yumichika in that?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8208: Sep 13th 2014 at 6:13:46 PM

@Tobias Yeah that's just not true about ki. Large attacks simply aren't wasteful - the size of one absolutely doesn't matter. Piccolo's Makankosappo was that size due to being shot with one hand. He later ditched it for the much larger Light Grenade.

Goku's x20 Kamehameha is also huge and wasn't needed to counter another huge beam. Huge beams are simply a thing that happens when you use lots and lots of power.

Goku's full power Kamehameha as a Full Power Super Saiyan is much bigger than his regular one and simply better. The Genki Dama having any such properties is a total assumption, nothing like that is ever said. Kuririn locked it onto Vegeta's evil ki and since Gohan doesn't have that, it was reflected off him. Absolutely nothing about it being specific to the Genki Dama. And that's also got nothing to do with the Genki Dama's size, anyway? It's just another ki attack. Genki is literally just a component of ki.

For Freeza's final attack on Goku, that's not what happened at all. Only one panel makes it look like Goku's blast is smaller and going through Freeza's, but we don't actually see Freeza's beam, just the collision. The next page shows Goku's beam is pushing back Freeza's and is either equal in size or bigger. 1

You're attributing properties to ki that simply aren't part of the series. While it would logically work that way in.. well, not real life, where ki attacks don't work at all, but in a more realistic setting, ki size is simply up to Artistic Licence. Smaller attacks aren't used to be more efficient, they're just added for variety or because it suits the character. The only time the story implies anything about size it's that larger attacks are harder to counter.

For Vegeta vs Nail yeah there's nothing special about that, at all. Virtually every other character does the same thing and in this case Vegeta has every reason to believe he's stronger than Nail since he is ten times stronger than the best Namekians seen so far. He's simply got no reason to believe Nail is as strong as he is, and he's not picking a fight for no reason since Nail is directly impeding his goal by trying to prevent him from getting the last Dragon Ball.

Trying to kill Freeza before he transformed probably would have been the smart move. But given that Freeza heals all damage, if they'd tried and he managed to transform anywhere he'd be back at 100% and they'd have wasted their energy. It's not necessarily easier to kill him before he transforms if they can't stop the transformation. Vegeta outright says he knows Freeza can transform, so he might as well do it now. He's not smirking or being cocky when he says any of this. It's only when Freeza powers up a bit and blows off his jacket that he smirks at him. Again, I brought up the Zarbon fight because even though he was stronger than Zarbon's first form, Vegeta felt more confident getting the drop on his second form and weakening him to the point where his transformation couldn't give him the edge over Vegeta.

He never stopped relying on Kuririn and Gohan to beat Freeza. When Freeza showed up, he was confident because he was talking up all three of them, never planning to take Freeza alone or prove anything.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8209: Sep 13th 2014 at 7:06:59 PM

But given that Freeza heals all damage

Since when?

Oh wait, he does regrow his tail when he transformed, but I'm not sure that counts.

Plus, he's probably would not have even bothered to transform if Vegeta didn't push him to do so.

One Strip! One Strip!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#8210: Sep 13th 2014 at 7:21:27 PM

@Uncle 17 Holy shit, that's adorable.

My various fanfics.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8211: Sep 13th 2014 at 9:43:52 PM

[up][up] And he also heals all the scratches and shit on him when he transforms.

He would definitely bother to transform if Vegeta and co begun putting up a resistance. The other times he transformed, he did so without any goading and while he was already winning.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#8212: Sep 13th 2014 at 10:11:30 PM

That was only when he transformed into his true form though, every other time he transformed the injuries stayed with him.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8213: Sep 13th 2014 at 10:16:48 PM

No, his second to third transformation healed everything but the tail.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8214: Sep 14th 2014 at 9:33:53 PM

-looks at last page-

People are STILL debating tactics in DBZ? Why can't everyone just accept that all characters are equally dumb?

It's a shounen series where you have to power up. T He only way for it to function is for everyone to be do the most illogical things.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8215: Sep 14th 2014 at 10:12:22 PM

People are STILL debating tactics in DBZ? Why can't everyone just accept that all characters are equally dumb?

Because it is our way, and our god given right as fans!!!!!

And dammit, I don't know about the rest of your, but I'm gonna exercise that damned right!!!!

One Strip! One Strip!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#8216: Sep 14th 2014 at 11:42:44 PM

So, can Full Power Ascended Legendary Super Saiyan God exist, or is that too much?

edited 14th Sep '14 11:43:06 PM by Rinsankajugin

Mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
Forever Gorgeous
#8217: Sep 15th 2014 at 1:26:08 AM

Too much and kinda worse, since Ascended form is just 1.5, and a worse 1.5 at that; and this is a series where sacrificing speed for more power is a dumb dumb move,

"Curry killed the pussy hoping that I could kill the hate in you" - Curry, D. "TABOO | TA13OO." TA13OO, PH, 2018
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#8218: Sep 15th 2014 at 7:55:37 AM

Except Super Saiyan Grade 2 didn't sacrifice speed, it increased it. It was Super Saiyan Grade 3 that sacrificed speed for more power.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8219: Sep 15th 2014 at 8:41:23 AM

What.

Vegeta isn't "entitled". He trained his ass off since he was a kid and asked to go on dangerous missions. Then when he sees someone, a low-class, that lived a comparatively peaceful life on Earth being stronger than him: well I'd say that gives him a right to be pissed. And his anger is straight up self-loathing.

Anyway, the Namek arc showed it better than any other the difference between Earth fighters and space ones. Space warriors prefer Ki since it's far more lethal than punching and kicking. When fighting and war serve as your livelihood, you have to be efficient at it.

No, Vegeta didn't get to where he is by training really hard. He actively disparages the very notion that hard work and training would allow someone to surpass him when he's fighting Goku. He makes a point to Cui about how he's surpassed Cui by fighting on battlefields, but he's talking about the zenkai he received on Earth. His power on Earth was 18,000, equal to Cui, but his zenkai put him beyond him. He's just mocking Cui, not claiming credit for using hard work and diligence to achieve his power, and the actual reason for why he surpassed Cui is because of a Saiyan racial benefit.

And no, space warriors don't "prefer ki because it's more efficient". I don't even know where you begin to come up with that. Citation needed.

Yeah that's just not true about ki. Large attacks simply aren't wasteful - the size of one absolutely doesn't matter. Piccolo's Makankosappo was that size due to being shot with one hand. He later ditched it for the much larger Light Grenade.

The Makankosappo also took five minutes to charge up. Ditching it for anything is probably a wise decision. Filler usages of the attack erased that liability, but the fact that, in the manga, he never used the move again leaves the question unanswered as to whether it could be performed without it.

It's impossible to say whether the Light Grenade is actually stronger than the Makankosappo, or if it merely has less crippling requirements for use.

The entire rest of Saiga's post, really

...

I got nothing. You win.

-looks at last page-

People are STILL debating tactics in DBZ? Why can't everyone just accept that all characters are equally dumb?

It's a shounen series where you have to power up. T He only way for it to function is for everyone to be do the most illogical things.

The characters only stopped using tactics and relied solely on powering up for a brief period that began in the second half of Goku v. Frieza, continued through the entirety of the Cell Saga, and then was brutally deconstructed and ripped to shreds by Majin Buu, who kept kicking Powering Up in the balls by rigorous usage of creative techniques and tactics, and required a new strategy to overcome.

While there were elements of Power Up to Win all the way back through Goku's initial training under Kamesennin, there were also plenty of tactics in Dragon Ball, and it was only during the time mentioned above that it became just about raising power levels.

edited 15th Sep '14 8:41:40 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8220: Sep 15th 2014 at 6:53:26 PM

No, Vegeta didn't get to where he is by training really hard. He actively disparages the very notion that hard work and training would allow someone to surpass him when he's fighting Goku. He makes a point to Cui about how he's surpassed Cui by fighting on battlefields, but he's talking about the zenkai he received on Earth.

Yeah no. Vegeta wasn't born with a power level of 18000. He surpassed King Vegeta as a child, but that's entirely due to him wanting to go on dangerous missions and him being "trained" by Frieza via Saibamen. Also, there's a difference between the gains the child of two world-class athletes and two regular people would get from training. Vegeta thought himself of a higher breed, and thus his training would always make him better than Goku, who is of a lower breed.

Good thing you brought up Cui. Vegeta clearly believes in hard work paying off for himself since he brings this up against Zarbon and Dodoria too, that while they were getting fat and lazy, Vegeta was doing dangerous missions and ever increasing his power. No matter how much you say it, the story doesn't support Vegeta not earning his power. And later arcs show that his training ethic goes beyond everyone else's.

It's not entitlement; it's logic. Logically, some low-class warrior raised on a backwater planet should not be anywhere near comparable to someone born of the highest pedigree who spent his entire life on battlefields against aliens who were 100s of times stronger than the average power level of someone on Earth (re: average human's power level is two).

If you are saying "zenkais don't count," then Goku didn't work hard either since it was only through abusing Zenkai boosts did he get to the 90,000 he came to Namek with (and Zenkais are what got him through pre-Z Dragonball). Further, Goku is as much of a special snowflake as Vegeta, if not more.

edited 15th Sep '14 6:55:27 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8221: Sep 16th 2014 at 1:46:22 AM

[up][up] Just a minor point on the Makankosappo, the charge time was at least partially due to Piccolo's lack of an arm (and regenerating exhausts him). I'm one of the people who think that his two-handed attack against Nappa was what the Makankosappo is like with two arms, and that had no significant delay.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8222: Sep 16th 2014 at 6:10:09 AM

I was actually wondering what that attack would be like with two arms.

But he doesn't yell out the name, so I figured it was just a generic blast that....for some reason looked like that attack.

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Tobiasdrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8223: Sep 16th 2014 at 6:46:50 AM

Yeah no. Vegeta wasn't born with a power level of 18000. He surpassed King Vegeta as a child, but that's entirely due to him wanting to go on dangerous missions and him being "trained" by Frieza via Saibamen.

Yes, and then he went on to fight Metal Cooler and be paralyzed by terror of Broly.

You're talking about the Bardock Special. That thing is of dubious canon even for the filler-laden anime.

Vegeta never talks much about his childhood.

Also, there's a difference between the gains the child of two world-class athletes and two regular people would get from training. Vegeta thought himself of a higher breed, and thus his training would always make him better than Goku, who is of a lower breed.

Vegeta doesn't just mock Goku for being a lower breed, he also mocks him for his concept of hard work. Remember this exchange?

  • VEGETA: You should be honored, Kakarot. A low-class like you rarely gets to play with a super-elite like me.
  • GOKU: Even a low-class can surpass an elite with enough hard work.
  • VEGETA: Really? Then I will show you the power that no amount of "hard work" can compare to.

Paraphrased, but that's the most iconic bit of dialogue from that fight. Vegeta's not just mocking Goku, he's mocking the notion of training itself, and it's only after Goku makes short work of the Ginyus and then defeats Frieza that Vegeta starts taking the concept seriously and demands a 300x Gravity Chamber to train in.

Good thing you brought up Cui. Vegeta clearly believes in hard work paying off for himself since he brings this up against Zarbon and Dodoria too, that while they were getting fat and lazy, Vegeta was doing dangerous missions and ever increasing his power. No matter how much you say it, the story doesn't support Vegeta not earning his power. And later arcs show that his training ethic goes beyond everyone else's.

Vegeta DID earn his power: through zenkai, not through training. Every time he lost a fight, his power inceased through zenkai, and that was how fighting against powerful enemies made him stronger. We never see him make any effort to deliberately raise his power through training prior to Frieza's death, or even make any mention of doing so.

You keep saying the story supports Vegeta reaching the level he was at when he fought Goku on Earth through hard work and training, but at no point is that even implied. Every gain we see Vegeta make is through zenkai, and the only mention he makes of why his power goes up is because he fights on the front lines, which would raise his power when he loses though zenkai as well. Vegeta's power is a combination of his status as a super-elite and incidental gains brought on by a racial bonus, NOT training.

His boasting is his ego congratulating itself. Zarbon, Dodoria, and Cui wouldn't get zenkais doing what he does anyway, and as far as warriors in the galaxy go, these "fat and lazy" elite warriors could still kick the crap out of most things that exist with one hand. Vegeta's just high on his pride and taking the opportunity to gloat about how awesome he is, because that is a thing he does all the time, even when he shouldn't.

Also, where are you getting that his training ethic "goes beyond anyone else's"?

It's not entitlement; it's logic. Logically, some low-class warrior raised on a backwater planet should not be anywhere near comparable to someone born of the highest pedigree who spent his entire life on battlefields against aliens who were 100s of times stronger than the average power level of someone on Earth (re: average human's power level is two).

Logically, some low-class warrior raised on a backwater plant shouldn't have handed Nappa his own face just now, but Vegeta still doesn't care. Logically, leaving Goku's allies alive is a stupid play that may bite him in the ass, but Vegeta doesn't care. Logically, Piccolo should be kept alive because even if there is a set of Dragon Balls on another planet somewhere, there's also a set right here that shouldn't just be dismissed out of hand because Vegeta's bored and wants to see some blood. Logically, Vegeta shouldn't constantly mouth off to literally everyone he meets, because he knows damn well there are stronger people out there than him.

It's not logic. It's pride. Vegeta is full of his own status as the Prince of All Saiyans, a super-elite Saiyan Warrior from the best race who can win anything and beat anyone. He never actually grows out of that, continuing to be utterly dismissive of the power of others before ever even encountering it up to and including his plan for dealing with Majin Buu, "If Kakarot and I wake it up with our fight, we'll just kick its ass, duh."

If you are saying "zenkais don't count, " then Goku didn't work hard either since it was only through abusing Zenkai boosts did he get to the 90, 000 he came to Namek with (and Zenkais are what got him through pre-Z Dragonball). Further, Goku is as much of a special snowflake as Vegeta, if not more.

No, Goku trained AND received zenkais. He got four zenkais during his gravity chamber training, but he only got those because he was actually training. He only reached the level he was at when he fought Vegeta through training too. Goku spent most of his life training and seeking newer, greater masters to train under in order to continue his training.

Goku benefitted from Saiyan racial bonuses as well, but they're only a small part of what made Goku the exceptional fighter he became. Vegeta was blessed with a high power level and took from it that he's automatically the best ever and no one could ever compare with him, and only started training when he was shocked to discover that Goku did. Goku, on the other hand, was given a low power level - when we meet him at the beginning of the series, he would have been unable to complete his mission and destroy even a relatively pitiful planet like Earth, even with the power of the Oozaru - and only achieved greatness through constant hard work and diligence.

[up] No, Saiga's right, that does look like the Complete Makankosappo. It wouldn't be the first technique to stop getting called. I think Goku's done the Kamehameha a couple times without saying the words, and he stopped announcing when he was using the Kaioken on Namek; x20 Kamehameha excepted.

edited 16th Sep '14 7:04:12 AM by Tobiasdrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#8224: Sep 16th 2014 at 7:36:39 AM

New Xenoverse trailer and gameplay coming in a couple of days. Anything you guys expecting or wanting from this game?

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8225: Sep 16th 2014 at 7:42:28 AM

[up][up]Reserving this post for when I'm not on a phone.

You might wanna throw out your critique of the Bardock special since doing so only strengthens my argument though. I'll get to the rest later.


Vegeta doesn't just mock Goku for being a lower breed, he also mocks him for his concept of hard work. Remember this exchange?

You're taking that quote out of context, or trying to twist it to suit your needs. Let's put it back into context, shall we?

Vegeta is a proud warrior prince of a warrior race, of which there exists classes. He is of the highest class, is utterly ruthless, and takes delight in battle. Of course he would believe that Goku, no matter how hard he trained, would never be able to match him. He had been a warrior all his life, while Goku, again, grew up on a planet considered weak enough for a weak Saiyan to conquer.

Yes, and then he went on to fight Metal Cooler and be paralyzed by terror of Broly. You're talking about the Bardock Special. That thing is of dubious canon even for the filler-laden anime. Vegeta never talks much about his childhood.

Okay, if we're doing that... Vegeta mentions having surpassed his father when he was a child. Not "I was born stronger than him," or "I was gifted power greater than his," but "I already surpassed the king as a child."

From Jaco, we know Vegeta was off doing missions since childhood, and doing them successfully. Relevant to mention since it's implied humanity is one of the weakest races out there, so it's more logical to assume that the race he and Raditz wiped out were at the very least more dangerous than what Goku was assigned to deal with. What this means is it is extremely logical for Vegeta to think of Goku as utterly inferior to him, and that the difference between them wouldn't be made up with just training.

Vegeta's not just mocking Goku, he's mocking the notion of training itself

Nnnnnnnope. Note here he says situation'''s'''. What he's saying there is while he was off constantly endanger in his life in combat (re: just as useful as training, and nothing to be looked down upon), Cui was getting fat behind Frieza. It's a notion he echoes here too. Then we have later Dragonball showing just how insane Vegeta's training is. He very clearly believes in the merit of hard work. What he didn't believe was that a low class' hard work would ever be able to equal his.

Vegeta DID earn his power: through zenkai, not through training

That is a pointless distinction. How does Vegeta get his zenkais? By fighting people stronger than him and risking his life. Why is this less noble than training?

Logically, some low-class warrior raised on a backwater plant shouldn't have handed Nappa his own face just now

Except Vegeta is more than 3x as strong as Nappa, and at best, Goku only showed power that was only a little over 2x as strong. Vegeta had 0 reason to take him as a serious threat to him. As for sparing Goku's friends, no he did want them dead. Nappa was just inefficient. I feel like what I've said above adequately addresses the rest of your points, so I see no reason to endlessly restate things.

No, Goku trained AND received zenkais. He got four zenkais during his gravity chamber training, but he only got those because he was actually training

You sure do like jumping through hoops to justify Goku's stuff while denigrating Vegeta. Goku only got to 90k because of Zenkais. Months with Kai and his power level capped out at 5000, but four days in space training by himself and his power level jumps to 90k? No, no. Zenkai clearly did the bulk of his improvement, and it was something he abused with Senzu Beans and injuring himself. Vegeta only once in the entire story depends on the Zenkai, and it was against Frieza when he had Krillin shoot him.

Really, if Vegeta was so averse to training and hard work as you make it seem, why on Earth would he so completely give himself over to it in later arcs (re: the ones immediately after Namek). If Vegeta didn't believe in hard work or training, how would he even have a basic grasp on ki and how to use it? Your logic just doesn't hold up here.

Vegeta doubting Goku could scratch him is logical to assume given their respective positions and histories, is the point.

Goku benefitted from Saiyan racial bonuses as well, but they're only a small part of what made Goku the exceptional fighter he became.

No, that's an outright lie. The most important reason Goku is as strong as he is is because he's a Saiyan. Let's look at characters without the Saiyan/alien bonuses: Yamcha, Krillin, Tenshinhan, Chiatzou, Roshi etc.

Even in early Dragonball, Goku would often get beat to near-death by an adversary, then come back stronger than them for round 2: Zenkai boosts. Goku grasp techniques faster than those around him: also a Saiyan trait. Goku is immune to gunfire: also a Saiyan trait.


As for Vegeta's fighting methods: just look at the Namek Arc. All of Frieza's men resort to ki blasts. They depend heavily on it. That's how Vegeta was trained to fight. It stuck with him. And as silly as it may be to you that he always falls back to it, it's a legitimate real life strategy and it's also known soldiers/law enforcement instinctively fall back on their training, whether it proves right or wrong in whatever situation triggered it.

edited 16th Sep '14 3:38:26 PM by Cruherrx

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."

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