TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8176: Sep 10th 2014 at 3:55:29 AM

...I always though that Final Flash was one of silliest moments in DBZ, right behind that groan-worthy beam-o-war between Gohan and Cell. :|

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8177: Sep 10th 2014 at 6:31:58 AM

Yamcha was already the deads at that point.

Typo. I meant to say Yajirobe.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8178: Sep 10th 2014 at 10:27:15 AM

No. That's not the point. The reason it's an iconic scene is because it epitomizes just how much series escalated at that, irregardless of the technique being successfully or not. I mean, did you see the aftermath of the attack? It's insane.

Not any more insane than Frieza destroying Planet Namek, and the effects on Cell are negligible as a consequence of having no real measure of how powerful he's supposed to be by comparison to the others, other than "somewhere beyond Vegeta".

With the Galick Gun, we have an exact measure of how strong it's meant to be: it took 400% of Goku's power to overcome it, and the consequences of raising the Kaioken that high devastated Goku's body. Even though Vegeta lost the beam struggle, the Galick Gun still destroyed Goku, rendering him largely defenseless against the ensuing Oozaru beatdown.

The Galick Gun failed just as hard as the Final Flash did, but it altered the course of the entire battle, and it was measurably impressive by comparison to the person struggling against it. Final Flash was immediately shrugged off and ignored like it never happened.

Compare also the reveals of the Makankosappo, Taiyoken, Kaioken, Genki-Dama, even the Kamehameha itself. Hell, compare Vegeta's reveal of the Big Bang Attack in that very arc. It's like, why go to the trouble of having a character invent an awesome new technique only for it to fizzle out pointlessly, accomplish nothing, and never be used again?

What? Freeza already had the longest arc in the show at that point and they had already gone into great detail of what sort business Freeza runs. What difference would have King Cold made, other than, "I'm Freeza's dad and business consultant"?

How about a name for their species? Does Frieza actually rule the universe or just run a planet-broker business? What role does his father even have in the first place in said empire, when Frieza himself is the strongest in the universe? What is the relationship between Frieza and his father, and how is that relationship affected by the apparent power disparity between the two? Is Frieza himself even ruler or all, or is that King Cold?

There are so many questions that are raised by the existence of a ruler figure above Frieza but of apparently weaker power than Frieza, as well as unanswered questions about Frieza himself, all of which tie into the Myth Arc surrounding Goku and his mysterious origins. That Myth Arc was abruptly kicked in the balls and shunted offscreen for the sake of Trunks abducting the plot for something completely different.

He did not go out like Krillin. #16 damn well knew if he died he wasn't coming back and sort of repair were out of the question since there wasn't nothing more than his head left. And he though what better way to die then to die inspiring the you to achieve and unachievable and protect what they love the most.

Yeah, and Krillin risked his life knowing that he could never be revived either - if Frieza won or if the conflict took too long and Guru died, the Namekian Dragon Balls would be gone; and even if they got Piccolo back before all that happened, the Earth Dragon Balls can never resurrect him again, so anything short of resurrecting Guru and flat-out defeating the most powerful, unstoppable horror in the entire universe meant Krillin's death would be permanent - against aliens who far outclassed him in order to help the people he cared about.

How is it bullshit? It was already established that Gohan was waaaaayy stronger than Cell as a Super Saiyan 2 even after Cell received a Zenkai and Gohan's power level dipped due to breaking him arm saving Vegeta. He was just holding back because he very low self esteem and self confidence. Something #16, Piccolo and Goku pointed out.

It's not that instance. The whole arc is coated in straight power-wanking. There is very little creativity in the Cell Saga; very little actual fighting, with most fights boiling down to who can raise their power level higher. The Cell Saga's battles aren't fights at all, they're just Stat Comparisons. 18 wins because she's stronger. Piccolo wins because he's stronger. Gohan wins because he's stronger. Etc.

No tactics, no creative techniques, just large attacks that either do no damage or win the fight. Gohan defeated Cell by raising his power level up above Cell's during a Beam Struggle, and that was the final blow of the entire arc: Gohan wins because his stats just have higher numbers.

Compare a similar handicapped victory from the Piccolo Daimao final battle, in which Piccolo broke both of Goku's legs and one of his arms. Goku didn't take the victory by merely raising his power and hitting Piccolo with a stronger beam than Piccolo's; he did it through cleverness, firing his Kamehameha down at the ground to launch his own body into the air and punch a hole through Piccolo's torso with his one good arm; he won by outstrategizing and outmaneuvering Piccolo despite his near-helpless state.

edited 10th Sep '14 10:34:34 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
qtjinla15 Since: Dec, 2010
#8179: Sep 11th 2014 at 6:44:12 PM

Didn't someone link an article where Toriyama noted that if Cell hadn't blocked at the last second and Vegeta had focused the attack on Cell a bit more Cell would have definitely died from the Final Flash?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8180: Sep 11th 2014 at 7:07:13 PM

Hmm really?

The look on his face did seem to indicate that he was genuinely scared of it. Considering it did manage to damage his body, he probably did genuinely believe it would have killed him.

Of course this is before we learned of his superior regeneration skills (or before Cell himself learned of it) so it would have been a moot point, since Vegeta would have just made him stronger anyway unless the attack completely obliterated his core as well.

One Strip! One Strip!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8181: Sep 12th 2014 at 5:58:55 AM

Well, for sake of the discussion, here's the size of the Final Flash in the Anime. Pretty damn huge ain't it?

Now look at how big it is in the Manga.

Huge difference in size ain't it?

The funny thing about all this is that the aftermath of the attack appears to identical in size in both the anime and manga, which makes me wonder whether the beam expanded after it hit Cell and once Vegeta redirected from Earth, showing how large the Final Flash would have truly been if Vegeta decided to go for it destroy the planet along with Cell.

edited 12th Sep '14 5:59:15 AM by FireShadow

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#8182: Sep 12th 2014 at 8:06:35 AM

That's actually what happened in the anime, the beam expanded upon impact with Cell, causing it to grow to the size shown in the first image.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8183: Sep 12th 2014 at 8:14:47 AM

Yeah, I'm still not particularly impressed by it.

The Galick Gun made sense to me because it wasn't intended to destroy Goku, it was intended to bust the planet. Vegeta had gone, "FUCK THIS," and was going to destroy the Earth. Similarly, Goku's equally impressive x4 Kamehameha had to be large enough to counter Vegeta's planet-killing beam.

The purpose of Final Flash was to destroy a human-sized target. I can't help but feel like it's an incredible waste of power. Like, the parts of the beam that are miles away from Cell, what are they accomplishing other than pointlessly consuming Vegeta's ki? If Vegeta didn't waste so much energy trying to murder the air several miles away from Cell, he might have had the energy to keep on going in the fight.

edited 12th Sep '14 8:16:38 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#8184: Sep 12th 2014 at 9:02:40 AM

I think part of it was Vegeta's arrogance and desperation, as well as his rage. "This motherfucker thinks he's so good? FUCK HIM, Imma hit him with the biggest laser beam imaginable."

My various fanfics.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8185: Sep 12th 2014 at 12:19:48 PM

"Is that me? Is that me stronger than me!? I'll f'cking kill me!"

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8186: Sep 12th 2014 at 12:28:28 PM

[up][up] Same. It's a recurring character trait that Vegeta is a wasteful egotist whose fighting style features a lot more beam spamming, reckless charges, and needles showboating than other characters. He coasts on his power level and nothing else, his training is simply, "higher level, bigger explosions, I win," and his overreliance on simply Brute Forcing enemies to death is his greatest weakness.

As such, it seems perfectly in-character for me that Vegeta would devise a technique like Final Flash, which is the ultimate example of wasteful overexpenditure of energy for the sake of reckless showboating, and also that such a technique would ultimately fail. I just don't understand why the move is hailed like it's the greatest technique of all time.

edited 12th Sep '14 12:29:05 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8187: Sep 12th 2014 at 12:34:49 PM

Hey guys, remember back when Vegeta used his brain, and didn't just recklessly charge into danger?

Good old Namek Saga.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8188: Sep 12th 2014 at 12:50:56 PM

  • Got his ass kicked gloating at Zarbon.
  • Tried to pick a fight with Nail, who would have obliterated him effortlessly.
  • "Transform, Frieza, and show us your real power!"

...um...no, I don't remember such a time at all? Vegeta's been mindlessly aggressive since the moment he first blew up a Saibaman for not fighting hard enough, and then went on to try to blow up the entire planet Earth with his Galick Gun - an attack he was so determined to prove his superiority with that he either ignored or forgot that it would kill him too.

edited 12th Sep '14 12:56:06 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8189: Sep 12th 2014 at 12:56:50 PM

That stuff happened? Man, I must rewatch Namek saga.

Anyway, so Vegeta was always an idiot it seems.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8190: Sep 12th 2014 at 12:58:09 PM

Yeah, Vegeta was one hell of a Magnificent Bastard in the Saiyan arc and Namek arc. But then he became a Super Saiyan, and his IQ dropped faster than the animation quality of Sailor Moon Crystal.

But being a Super Saiyan naturally brings out the worst out of anyone... except for Future Trunks.

edited 12th Sep '14 1:48:04 PM by FireShadow

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8191: Sep 12th 2014 at 1:02:28 PM

Vegeta always had ego issues. He knew better than to try to directly engage the Ginyus or Frieza because he knows them, but outside of those two, he was pretty convinced that anyone and everyone is automatically weaker than him because, as the Prince of All Saiyans, he's the best thing since sliced bread.

He gloated, showboated, and got his ass kicked on Earth. He gloated, showboated, and got his ass kicked on Namek. He gloated, showboated, and got killed by Frieza. And then he gloated, showboated, and got his ass kicked by the androids and Cell. He's pretty consistent with going, "Muwaha, you are shit compared to me because I'm the best thing ever," and then having someone force-feed him his own words. That basically summarizes his entire character history.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Handsomerob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8192: Sep 12th 2014 at 1:10:36 PM

To be fair, he was right about being better then Cell.

He then proceeded to let his ego convince him to allow the latter to power up beyond his ability to deal with, further proving the point made above.

But we do see both with Frieza, the Ginyu, and later Beerus, that when he knows what he's dealing with, he'll reign in his ego and actually fight smart.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8193: Sep 12th 2014 at 1:12:45 PM

The thing with Cell was so stupid, even by Vegeta standards.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8194: Sep 12th 2014 at 1:14:19 PM

He doesn't fight smart, he just tries to avoid fighting at all when he knows what he's dealing with. He still fights like an idiot when it comes to blows.

If it's been well-established to Vegeta that you can beat him like a ragdoll, he'll try to avoid the confrontation until he's more confident in his abilities. However, he automatically assumes with every new person he meets that he could effortlessly crush them in seconds no matter how powerful they become.

The thing with Cell was so stupid, even by Vegeta standards.

Goku did it too, when he allowed Frieza to achieve his Full Power. That ended with better results, but that's because the universe loves Goku more than it loves Vegeta, not because it was any wiser a decision.

Vegeta made the same bad call as Goku, for the same bad reasons. "I want to defeat him when he's fighting at his full power." Cell himself did it to Gohan too. Gohan never did it, but still participated in certain other Dumb Saiyan events. Trunks was just about the only Saiyan character who didn't participate in pointless egowanking and was all, "Yeah, I don't care what level Frieza's at, Imma just kill him now," and "Dad, stop being a dipshit and keep Cell from achieving Perfect Form!"

I attribute Trunks being more pragmatic than the others to Bulma's influence.

edited 12th Sep '14 1:19:59 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#8195: Sep 12th 2014 at 1:24:35 PM

Everyone in DBZ is a martial artists, but Vegeta is a soldier. It's common military tactic to spam bullets to pin enemies down, and it's a strategy Vegeta employed many times. Vegeta will use underhanded tactics to win, or simply pummel an opponent down with brute force. Saiyans fight to survive, so their fighting styles aren't exactly "elegant," but are still efficient.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8196: Sep 12th 2014 at 1:28:14 PM

Goku did it too, when he allowed Frieza to achieve his Full Power. That ended with better results, but that's because the universe loves Goku more than it loves Vegeta, not because it was any wiser a decision.

But Frieza was constantly telling Goku how much of his power he's using so it was pretty easy for him to estimate that even at 100% he won't be able to beat him. Vegeta was like "I'm just going on a limb that you won't be stronger than me."

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8197: Sep 12th 2014 at 1:35:29 PM

[up][up] Uh, no. Vegeta is as far from a soldier as you can get. He's neither efficient nor tactical. He's royalty; an entitled egotist totally convinced of his own superiority despite evidence to the contrary. Between trying to pick a fight with Nail, egging Frieza on to transform, threatening to kill anyone who tries to stop Dr. Gero from creating the androids, helping Cell achieve his perfect form, helping Babidi awaken Majin Buu, and breaking the Potara, Vegeta has on many occasions demonstrated that to him, defeating the enemy is not nearly as important as showing off what he considers to be the tremendous size of his dick.

This is the biggest distinction between him and Goku, who makes similar mistakes to challenge himself. Goku frequently allows enemies to escape and power up in the hopes of having a harder fight in the future. Vegeta allows them to escape and power up in the hopes of proving how great he is by crushing an even stronger opponent. Goku fights to experience something; Vegeta fights to prove something.

edited 12th Sep '14 1:37:14 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Handsomerob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8198: Sep 12th 2014 at 2:51:27 PM

[up]

I'm positive that that was the basic gist of Vegeta's realization about him and Goku at the end of the Buu saga.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8199: Sep 12th 2014 at 5:20:31 PM

Completely wrong about Vegeta. First of all, ki doesn't work the way you're describing it and strong attacks are often larger than their target because that's just what happens when you put enough power into it to actually hurt someone. The Genki Dama isn't Goku wasting energy, nether is his Kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha which was absurdly huge. Also, the Nail example is stupid because he can't sense Nail's ki unless Nail is fighting. He's got no idea that Nail is more than ten times stronger than Namek's best fighters. That's not something to reasonably expect.

He got his ass kicked by Zarbon but turned that around and kicked Zarbon's ass despite Zarbon still being stronger than him (the zenkai didn't make up the difference, it only allowed him to win after he weakened Zarbon through dirty fighting).

As for allowing Freeza to transform, he was using Zarbon as a measure for how strong he'd get. It was obviously wrong, but he was working off the only assumption he had. This wasn't about proving how great he was because he absolutely didn't want to fight Freeza without Kuririn and Gohan. If Freeza hadn't gotten "oh shit we can't deal with this" strong, they might've been able to pull a second Zarbon fight on him.

In terms of combat smarts/skill he's got a lot of good and bad moments, but that's because everyone in Dragon Ball has bad moments contrary to Toriyama's intent with them. He's not very good at coming up with strategies that are actually smart, as seen when character praise a tactic that was totally stupid.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8200: Sep 12th 2014 at 7:36:44 PM

First of all, ki doesn't work the way you're describing it and strong attacks are often larger than their target because that's just what happens when you put enough power into it to actually hurt someone.

Not so.

The Dodonpa, Makankosappo, and Death Beam have all been used to incredibly lethal effect by virtue of the fact that, Cell and Buu excepted, most fighters do not need to be vaporized to die.

And while Cell does need to have a critical component that's hard to find vaporized to kill him, nobody knew that at the time Vegeta used the Final Flash; not even Cell himself.

The Genki Dama isn't Goku wasting energy, nether is his Kaio-ken x4 Kamehameha which was absurdly huge.

The Genki-Dama explicitly has special anti-evil properties, as evidenced by the fact that it's harmless to anyone with a pure spirit. It functions differently from standard beam attacks.

The Kaioken x4 Kamehameha was absurdly huge, but it needed to counter the absurdly huge Galick Gun - which was, itself, absurdly huge to kill Earth, not merely Goku. By contrast, when Frieza tried to kill Goku with a large beam using the energy Goku lent him at the end of their match, Goku countered with a smaller, more concise beam that pierced through Frieza's large, wasteful blast.

Also, the Nail example is stupid because he can't sense Nail's ki unless Nail is fighting. He's got no idea that Nail is more than ten times stronger than Namek's best fighters. That's not something to reasonably expect.

It's still needlessly aggressive of Vegeta to go, "I don't know how strong you are but I'm certain I can take you because I can take everyone ever!" This is a recurring character trait for him, and the key reason why he gets his ass kicked so much.

As for allowing Freeza to transform, he was using Zarbon as a measure for how strong he'd get. It was obviously wrong, but he was working off the only assumption he had. This wasn't about proving how great he was because he absolutely didn't want to fight Freeza without Kuririn and Gohan. If Freeza hadn't gotten "oh shit we can't deal with this" strong, they might've been able to pull a second Zarbon fight on him.

Vegeta was high on his own pride when he started egging Frieza to transform. Trying to kill Frieza before he can transform into a stronger form would have been the smart move, but Vegeta practically begged him to reveal his true power, reveling in his own strength. He'd been panicking about the prospect of fighting Frieza without immortality prior to the Namekian Dragon Balls dying out, but as soon as Frieza was there, he put that panic aside and brought out Classic Overconfident Vegeta.

edited 12th Sep '14 7:42:45 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

Total posts: 130,800
Top