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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#8076: Aug 31st 2014 at 7:03:18 AM

...and everyone's lives would be ruined because of it.

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UltimateHammerBro Since: Apr, 2013
#8077: Aug 31st 2014 at 7:18:44 AM

Well, in the anime, Pilaf is seen actively looking for the Dragon Balls. It's one of those moments in which filler doesn't really contradict the manga.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8078: Aug 31st 2014 at 9:08:40 AM

True.

Huh.

Goku saved the world from an egomaniacal midget.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8079: Aug 31st 2014 at 10:06:40 AM

Actually, Oolong did that.

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SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
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#8080: Aug 31st 2014 at 10:29:37 AM

Really, we don't even know what would happen if Pilaf got his wish granted. Is everyone on Earth mind controlled to his will? Does he gain some great power? Does he just wear a fancy hat?

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BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#8081: Aug 31st 2014 at 11:30:22 AM

[up]He probably just gets put in King Furry's chair since the Earth is already united under one kingdom in the DB universe.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8082: Aug 31st 2014 at 1:49:32 PM

Yeah, that's probably it.

"I wish to rule the world!" sounds wonderful on paper until you realize you never set a time limit for how long you would remain ruler before being deposed. Piccolo Daimao had a better approach to this, wishing for eternal youth on the grounds of, "World domination is a stupid wish, I'm ALREADY powerful enough to rule the world." If you can't conquer it on your own merits, you probably won't be holding it for very long after the magical dragon puts you on the throne.

edited 31st Aug '14 1:50:51 PM by TobiasDrake

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BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#8083: Aug 31st 2014 at 4:45:50 PM

Makes me wonder what that guy who made the first ever wish on them was like.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
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#8084: Aug 31st 2014 at 4:51:07 PM

Well, apparently, the dragon balls were supposed to be gathered in times of great crisis by a hero, before Bulma just broke everything with her magic radar. So the first wish was probably something like "DESTROY THE EVIL THING."

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8085: Aug 31st 2014 at 5:01:15 PM

Idle thought: Throughout much of Dragon Ball, Goku learns valuable things about fighting from the various masters he learns from. Each one has different lessons to impart. Roshi strength-trains him through the heavy turtle shells. Karin teaches him that strength alone isn't sufficient, and through his training at the top of the tower, he learns to read an enemy's motions and predict their attacks. When he trains with God, the focus is on learning to see without seeing; sensing ki and being aware of his surroundings even when he can't see them with his eyes. Kaio teaches him actual techniques, the Kaioken and Genki-Dama, for making up the difference in power between himself and stronger enemies.

At one point, Goku likens the gravity on Kaio's planet to being reminiscent of his turtle shell training with Kamesennin, and that got me thinking. He mentions when he's doing his gravity training that he's getting back to basics, and that actually is what he's doing: he has everything else down, and the only thing he's missing against the likes of Vegeta is the sheer physical strength needed to compete on his level.

So he's gone back to his first lessons; the Gravity Training is an upgraded version of Master Roshi's turtle-shell strength training.

edited 31st Aug '14 5:01:39 PM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8086: Aug 31st 2014 at 5:27:01 PM

[up]

That's interesting.

Here a thought from me:

The full power Super Saiyan is the reverse concept of the principle you just brought up: Goku has loads of power, now he needs to refine his technique so he doesn't waste it and use too much. So he spends all his time as a Super Saiyan to get use to it, until it feels natural, the same way he wore the Turtle Shells in order to increase his strength until he was used to it, and the same way he trained in high gravity until he was used to it and not expended boat-loads of energy on simple tasks (or breaking things he didn't want to break).

Ok, now that I put it into words, maybe reverse isn't the right term, but they feel tied together somehow to me.

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TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#8087: Aug 31st 2014 at 6:10:13 PM

IT's kind of interesting how brilliant Dragon Ball's writing actually is. It probably wasn't even Toriyama's intention for the most part.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8088: Aug 31st 2014 at 9:47:02 PM

Another thing that just clicked for me:

Some people get to keep their bodies when they die, like Goku and, later, his friends did. I thought this just meant that when they cross over, their spirit is in the form of their body rather than a wispy cloud, but no, it's their actual body. That's why Goku's body vanished when he died; so that he could inhabit it in the afterlife.

A lot of fuss was made in the Piccolo Daimao arc about preserving the bodies of the dead because people would need those when they return to life. When Shenron resurrects someone, he puts them back into their corpse. This is also the reason why resurrecting Goku would have been initially difficult had he died from Namek's explosion, because presumedly, even if his body withstood the blast and wasn't reduced to giblets, his corpse is still floating in space.

This also complicates Chiaotzu's resurrection, because he was reduced to giblets; he blew himself into a million pieces fighting Nappa. Yamcha, Piccolo, and Tien's bodies could be preserved for resurrection, but Chiaotzu wasn't coming back even with the Namekian Dragon Balls - until he showed up at Kaio's planet with an intact body, because the deceased God reconstructed it for him for undergoing Kaio's training.

This bit with the corpse actually being brought with the dead person in special cases is also why Goku took so long to be revived; if his body was still on Earth, he would have just awoken there, but he needed it for his training under Kaio - which, in turn, explains why training he performs in the afterlife carries over back to the living world - and because he had his body with him in the afterlife, restoring him to life just gave him the ability to return to Earth, he still had to do the legwork to get there.

This clarification is fascinating.

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
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#8089: Aug 31st 2014 at 10:05:27 PM

Wait, then why did Bulma preserve Yamcha's, Tien's, and Piccolo's bodies if they would have gone with them into the Afterlife?

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8090: Aug 31st 2014 at 10:24:57 PM

Nobody knew that was going to happen until the four of them arrived at Kaio's planet. God arranged that in the afterlife without consulting anybody; the first anyone heard of it was when Kaio telepathically contacted Goku to tell him they'd arrived.

It looks like keeping your body isn't just a "be a really strong warrior" thing; you have to be sponsored by a divinity.

Which is consistent with the Buu Saga, wherein IIRC Vegeta had his body returned to him by King Enma to go fight Majin Buu.

edited 31st Aug '14 10:26:33 PM by TobiasDrake

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#8091: Aug 31st 2014 at 10:36:54 PM

Though that still doesn't explain how they got to Earth so fast after being brought back, even though they only used Porunga like two times.

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#8092: Aug 31st 2014 at 11:09:24 PM

By going to the Check-In Station ahead of time. Goku only took so long because Kaio forgot to account for the travel time, and wound up holding Goku a day later than he should have, forcing Goku to make a mad dash back to the Check-In Station so God could take him to Earth. Everyone died because Kaio had a brain-fart when calculating Goku's travel time.

If Kaio learned from this mistake and sent Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu back on schedule, they could pop back to Earth as soon as their resurrection wishes are made.

edited 31st Aug '14 11:10:20 PM by TobiasDrake

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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#8093: Aug 31st 2014 at 11:35:08 PM

Then how did all of them just appear back on Earth, despite the fact that Kami himself had to be the one to bring Goku back to the planet?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#8094: Aug 31st 2014 at 11:55:33 PM

@8084: No, the wish itself was explained in-series, at least in the anime. The first wish, made a very very long time before the events of the series, was to rule the world, which is why King Furry is in control of the entire planet now and how King Piccolo was the ruler of the entire planet when he (temporarily) dethroned him. All countries were united into one kingdom with that wish.

I'm just wondering what the guy who wished it was like.

edited 31st Aug '14 11:57:31 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8095: Sep 1st 2014 at 4:34:44 AM

It's in the manga as well. Long before the series, someone wished to be king of the world.

@Tobias Everything you said here was right, but I wanted to add that the reason for Goku's body disappearing was actually mentioned in the story, and that God transported it. You figured it out anyway, just wanted to point out God's involvement.

For God recreating Chaozu, he also recreated the moon at some point, and fixed Goku's chest and clothes. But preserving the bodies is probably still best so that he doesn't have to do that.

[up][up][up] It wasn't only much the travel time, the Saiyans arrived earlier than expected. Kaio was taking into consideration the travel time originally, since he had Goku finish his training a few days before the point he thought the Saiyans were going to arrive.

[up][up] Only Kuririn's revival was shown in the manga, and Porunga both brought his soul back to Earth and recreated his body there. How the others got back wasn't shown.

edited 1st Sep '14 4:37:21 AM by Saiga

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#8096: Sep 1st 2014 at 8:32:52 AM

I'm pretty sure they were resurrected on Earth because they had previously wished for them to be resurrected on Earth. I think it was Vegeta idea or something.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#8097: Sep 1st 2014 at 11:25:15 AM

Vegeta...Vegeta didn't even know what was going on and I'm pretty sure he went on space training before the wishes and stuff happened.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8098: Sep 1st 2014 at 11:28:55 AM

He was the one who suggested sending Goku and Krillin to the Earth's check in station so that they could be revived on Earth.

He left when he found out Goku wasn't dead, which was after they made that wish.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8099: Sep 1st 2014 at 1:20:30 PM

Captain Ginyu is shocked that Guldo, Burter, and Recoome all disappearing from the scouter readings was not a malfunction after all!

Goddammit, do the Scouters really malfunction that much? This is, like, the dozenth time someone has blamed a Scouter malfunction for the events transpiring around them. I'm starting to lose a lot of faith in the Scouters. tongue

edited 1st Sep '14 1:20:53 PM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8100: Sep 1st 2014 at 1:24:29 PM

I'm assuming they are very unfamiliar with people who can raise and lower their power at will considering that up until Goku, Vegeta and the Earthlings popped up, only Frieza (who needed to transform to do it) and Ginyu were familiar with the ability to hide power levels.

Well, the Namekians could do it too, but Ginyu never met any of them.

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