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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8001: Aug 27th 2014 at 2:04:54 PM

Except Gohan stated that trunks ki was the same size as Goku on namek.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8002: Aug 27th 2014 at 2:06:08 PM

[up][up]Yes and no. It's said they do, but never in anything more concrete than "they make him stronger!". As mentioned earlier, power levels stopped being a thing after Namek, so ultimately any comparison of Frieza to post-Namek powers is guesswork at best.

EDIT: Looking at the numbers some more, you're right that it would be impossible to justify post-Kami Piccolo being weaker than Full Power Frieza.

edited 27th Aug '14 2:15:53 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8003: Aug 27th 2014 at 3:53:34 PM

Actually there is something of a glass ceiling for Saiyans.

They eventually reach a point where they are putting out more energy then their bodies can handle, and are unable to maintain certain transformations for long periods of time.

Goku couldn't keep up Super Saiyan 3 for very long.

The Mid Super Saiyan / Ultra Super Saiyan / whatever the fuck it's called sacrificed speed for power until Goku and Gohan did 24/7 Super Saiyan training and broke the barrier to reach Super Saiyan 2, which didn't seem to have any energy consumption issues.

A lot of the later forms have the same problem. Powerful, but burn up energy too quickly, even Super Saiyan God.....

And now it occurs to me, that maybe Goku was able to hold onto some of the Super Saiyan God power because he's been focusing his training on conserving energy and training in lower forms to increase his power in higher ones.

So while they seem to have infinite power, the Saiyans lack the stamina to maintain these high levels.

One Strip! One Strip!
FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8004: Aug 27th 2014 at 5:09:24 PM

[up] That's a damn good theory and I'm not certain about this but didn't Goku explicitly state that the reason he usually fights as only a Super Saiyan from Cell Games and beyond most of the time is because it consumes basically no ki at all since he mastered the transformation. Or was that just Dub Text?

Either way I wouldn't be surprised if the B-plot of the 2015 DBZ movie was based around Goku mastering Super Saiyan God through training with Whis and/or Beerus. Goku has always been keen on mastering Super Saiyan transformation. It's just Super Saiyan 3 which seem to be giving him the most trouble. Although Battle Of Gods indicates he's gotten better at handling the transformation over the years.

edited 27th Aug '14 5:13:27 PM by FireShadow

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8005: Aug 27th 2014 at 7:27:32 PM

Super Saiyan 3 is usually reserved as a last resort, Goku only uses it when he absolutely must finish a fight as quick as possible. When he can't, such as against Buu, it becomes a problem and he exhausts himself.

Super Saiyan 1, while the most manageable of the three forms, just doesn't give enough power is most cases.

Super Saiyan 2 is kind of the in between; more potent than 1, but not as draining as 3. Makes you wonder why they don't it more often.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8006: Aug 27th 2014 at 7:47:12 PM
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8007: Aug 27th 2014 at 8:07:44 PM

And then Drake joined the "reading the manga" club.

CHI CHI: My heart is as clean as a flushed toilet.

I support this statement.

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8008: Aug 27th 2014 at 8:20:26 PM

[up][up]Because by the time Buu shows up, it just doesn't cut it anymore. Vegeta got beaten in under a minute when he fought Kid Buu.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8009: Aug 27th 2014 at 8:23:19 PM

He did a decent job of buying time, though, when Goku was preparing the Spirit Bomb.

But yes, Super Saiyan 2 just didn't cut it. Majin Buu so thoroughly outclassed the Saiyans that even at 100x power, they were no match, and unlike Namek where Goku got to multiply his power by 18,750x in order to match Frieza, the Buu Saga was less considerate with gigantic power-ups.

EDIT: Holy shit, really? Boss Rabbit? I thought for sure this was filler.

edited 27th Aug '14 8:28:28 PM by TobiasDrake

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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#8010: Aug 27th 2014 at 8:30:00 PM

Vegeta got beaten in under a minute when he fought Kid Buu.

Never Live It Down. I really felt for Vegeta in the anime version of that battle.

Even as a SSJ 2, he still did worse than Goku did. Goku could at least match Kid Buu blow for blow. Vegeta let loose with a single volley and literally spent the rest of the battle getting thrown around like a chew toy.

== ==

So, which of the Dragonball Z games did the best rendition of the Frieza arc?

Personally I've liked Budokai 1, with the scene where... well, this:

edited 27th Aug '14 8:36:30 PM by FOFD

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8011: Aug 27th 2014 at 9:12:06 PM

I always thought Super Saiyan 2 was underratted; not as iconic as the first one, and not as wild looking as 3.

Shame really, I liked it's subtle differences.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#8012: Aug 28th 2014 at 3:18:10 AM

Super Saiyan 2 is my favourite Saiyan form.

In conclusion, while it would take tremendous power-wanking bullshit to make the humans capable of competing again, these numbers make it clear that it already took tremendous power-wanking bullshit to make them unable to compete in the first place; power levels on Namek were driven entirely by plot, and the idea that humans becoming strong enough to compete would be inconsistent is ridiculous, based on the fact that "power levels" and "consistency" have no business ever being in the same sentence with each other.

Goku's power level increased 375x in six days of training and one utterly broken racial feature, and that is why there is no reason any character couldn't become relevant if the plot demanded it.

None of this is anything. Every time I talked about how useless the humans were, I mentioned it was perfectly possible to make them relevant through the use of bullshit. But that doesn't justify it at all, or make it any more palatable.

Also, while the amount in numbers is bullshit, the general idea of the Saiyans and Piccolo getting ahead isn't, because they had access to everything the humans did and more (zenkai, gravity training, fusion). Ignoring the numbers, the humans outperforming the Saiyans in worse conditions still makes no sense, so they'd need something that makes up for all the advantages Saiyans/Piccolo have that the Saiyans/Piccolo can't get access to. And there's simply no foundation for that already.


Also, on base Saiyans vs Freeza: There's no concrete answer either way.

The Battle of Gods thing is based entirely on Beerus saying "he [Goku] doesn't look like he can beat Freeza now" which isn't confirmed or denied, and also doesn't take into account that Goku isn't at max power when standing around anyway.

The Boo arc thing also doesn't prove anything because all involved had their ki suppressed and Dabra/Babidi are talking about "energy". Despite the Funimation dub translating ki/battle power was "energy", they're not necessarily the same thing in the original version (rather energy is a component of ki). Their energy is their fuel, not their power. Babidi and Dabra definitely didn't know how strong they were because they thought Pui Pui could take them all.

Of course, even if they're below 100% Freeza, that's still a huge room for growth. Goku can easily get anywhere up to 39x stronger and still be below Freeza. It's not going to be the same growth as Saiyan - Namek, or Namek alone, but it's still huge. And with the many Android arc power ups leading up to half of Goku's power outclassing them, I'd say he'd be using up a lot of his 39x allowance already.

edited 28th Aug '14 3:27:05 AM by Saiga

Blackyakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8013: Aug 28th 2014 at 9:42:02 AM

"Super Saiyan 2 is my favorite saiyan form"

My man.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8014: Aug 28th 2014 at 9:53:20 AM
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#8015: Aug 28th 2014 at 10:29:16 AM

Also, while the amount in numbers is bullshit, the general idea of the Saiyans and Piccolo getting ahead isn't, because they had access to everything the humans did and more (zenkai, gravity training, fusion). Ignoring the numbers, the humans outperforming the Saiyans in worse conditions still makes no sense, so they'd need something that makes up for all the advantages Saiyans/Piccolo have that the Saiyans/Piccolo can't get access to. And there's simply no foundation for that already.

See, that I can agree with.

The idea that the Saiyans and Piccolo are stronger is indisputable. That's canon. That the gap exists is what's relevant. It's the size of the gap that's basically meaningless.

  • The humans can't catch up because they don't have access to the opportunities/abilities/effects necessary - I agree with this.
  • The humans can't catch up because the gap between the Saiyans and the humans is so large that it would be inconsistent to the series for any opportunity, ability, or effect to make a human powerful enough to compete on the humans' level - Larger gaps have been closed before.

Toriyama has demonstrated that while their is a clear hierarchy as to who is stronger than who at any given time, and while there needs to be an explanation for why a character changes position on that hierarchy, the actual amount that the character moves is more dependent on where the plot needs them to be than anything else. The humans fell behind solely because the plot didn't see fit to provide them with a way to keep up, because they weren't the focus anymore, not because of any inherent inconsistency with giving humans a way to increase their power more.

edited 28th Aug '14 10:33:17 AM by TobiasDrake

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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8016: Aug 28th 2014 at 11:11:28 AM

You know what kind of bothers me? We established that Kaioken is probably not stackable with Super Sayian and that even learning it wouldn't make humans strong enough post Freeza, but why the Hilf didn't Piccolo learn to do it? It sure as hell would have helped him. And it's not like he didn't have occasion, he trained with Goku for three damn years. It sure as hell would have helped him!

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#8017: Aug 28th 2014 at 11:16:52 AM

Goku probably isn't the best teacher.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Makzilla Since: Aug, 2014
#8018: Aug 28th 2014 at 11:23:09 AM

No I'm pretty sure Goku could have taught him something. If he can teach his son things, then well, it can be that hard.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#8019: Aug 28th 2014 at 11:25:04 AM

Plus Piccolo did spend time with Kaiou while he was dead. He may not have actively done the training due to his pride, but he must have learned something while sitting around in Heaven.

I mean, he did finish Goten and Trunk's fusion lesson despite having to learn it at the same time as them.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#8020: Aug 28th 2014 at 11:40:42 AM

Irony: when Piccolo abducted Goku's son to train him so long ago, I think the last outcome he ever reaction he ever expected to come of that was, "Good job! You should train another one of my kids."

edited 28th Aug '14 11:40:50 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#8021: Aug 28th 2014 at 11:55:18 AM

"Wow. Gohan sounds like he's had a hard time. Piccolo should really have a talk with him."

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8022: Aug 28th 2014 at 5:34:04 PM

Goku is a good teacher, if given time and has the right environment. He made Gohan become a Super Saiyan and taught him to master the transformation in less than a fortnight. While Piccolo's training with Gohan accomplished nothing in hindsight.

As far trainers/teachers go in Dragon Ball, from what I've seen its: King Kai>Mutaito>Roshi>Kami>Goku>Piccolo>Popo

edited 28th Aug '14 5:43:31 PM by FireShadow

UltimateHammerBro Since: Apr, 2013
#8023: Aug 28th 2014 at 5:37:21 PM

Without entering DBZ Abridged jokes about Popo, he doesn't seem to be a bad teacher: he and Kami trained the Z warriors in six months and they sure improved.

FireShadow (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8024: Aug 28th 2014 at 5:43:11 PM

I honestly think Kami does most of the heavy lifting when it comes to training and teaching and Popo just stands there and watches. That was case when Goku as a kid went to train with Kami for the first time.

UltimateHammerBro Since: Apr, 2013
#8025: Aug 28th 2014 at 5:47:15 PM

It's funny, I've always thought it was the other way round (I'm talking about the manga, the anime added a lot of filler of Goku training with Kami). Kami would be the one giving advice and more of a spiritual training, while Popo would be the proper martial arts and techniques teacher.

Btw, did Goku learn to fly with Kami and Popo? I remember that there was a lot of shock when Tenshinhan and Chaoz used the flying technique, but then Goku started flying too and I don't think that it was ever stated when he learned it.


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