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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7976: Aug 26th 2014 at 8:43:30 AM

It's a shame. He could have tested my theory about why the Kaioken is never used again at the higher power levels of Cell and Buu Sagas.

  • CELL: Behold my ultimate power!
  • Cell glows red for half a second, and then his entire body implodes from the incredible power.
  • GOKU: Well, I'm never using that again.

To whit: unlike the Super Saiyan transformation, the Kaioken just gives the user the power without making them capable of sustaining it, resulting in an incredible physical toll on the user.

EDIT: Conversely, if the physical toll on the user doesn't increase at higher levels, Cell would be the perfect Kaioken user due to his regeneration.

edited 26th Aug '14 8:55:26 AM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
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#7977: Aug 26th 2014 at 9:08:45 AM

It was a filler, but Goku using Kaiouken during the after life tournament while in Super Saiyan (and clearly being exhausted afterwards) would confirm your theory.

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Blackyakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#7978: Aug 26th 2014 at 11:12:04 AM

Cell also says he can use the Spirit Bomb, which only showed up in the budokai games sadly.

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#7979: Aug 26th 2014 at 12:15:25 PM

[up]'Okay, planet, give me your stupid energy!'

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#7980: Aug 26th 2014 at 12:35:32 PM

-

Would someone explain to me why Kaioken/Super Kaioken is impossible? I don't recall it ever being commented on in the anime, but the fandom seems to have a general consensus that "Super Kaioken is stupid and implausible, and you should feel bad for not turning off your television when that stupidity happened".

While it would be a good excuse/explanation for why the Kaioken was abandoned later on, I don't remember Goku or King Kai explicitly saying "this will kill you if you use it now", or Goku using it at all once he became a Super Saiyan (excluding the filler arc).

Where is the scene that implied, or what was the reasoning for Kaioken killing the user at Cell/Buu saga power levels? Yes, he was tired after using Super Kaioken in the anime - he'd also been fighting Pikkon for awhile, and fired a Super Kamehameha in the same instant.

edited 26th Aug '14 12:38:41 PM by FOFD

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
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#7981: Aug 26th 2014 at 12:45:20 PM

It's just a case of sloppy writing, really. It's never explicitly stated that stacking a Kaioken on top of Super Sayian is not feasible, but we are forced to assume that, otherwise it makes absolutely no sense for Goku not to do that.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7982: Aug 26th 2014 at 1:24:44 PM

Yeah, the idea is an extrapolation on the damage the Kaioken does to the user's body and the fact that the Kaioken multiplies, resulting in an exponential increase on the ability's power returns.

Using the Kaioken with a power level of 180 million, for example, would result in FAR more power being placed upon the body than at a power level of 5,000. The resulting question therefore being, does the strain on the body increase exponentially with the power gain?

That Toriyama either forgot or stopped caring about the Kaioken after introducing Super Saiyan is almost certainly the Doylist answer to the question of where the Kaioken went - he didn't even throw the humans a bone by letting them learn it, so the fact that they made it to King Kai's planet accomplishes f*ck-all as far as the plot is concerned - but from a Watsonian perspective, the "Too powerful to use without imploding" fanon provides an easy excuse.

edited 26th Aug '14 1:27:17 PM by TobiasDrake

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#7983: Aug 26th 2014 at 3:26:35 PM

I think part of it is that Super Saiyan 2 is less straining then Super Saiyan 1 with kaioken.

And that combining Super Saiyan 2 and kaioken would make you explode.

And Cell is able to get power boosts from healing from deadly injuries. So if kaioken put a lot of nearly-fatal strain on him he could basically infinitely strong.

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#7984: Aug 26th 2014 at 3:32:06 PM

Using the Kaioken whilst you're a Super Saiyan certainly doesn't seem impossible, but like many people have theorized, you're body would implode in seconds. I mean using the Kaioken itself puts an insane amount of stress on the body just from powering up into the form and if want to go the extra mile and multiply the power of the Kaioken you run a heavy risk of ruining your body forever. And that's even if you've mastered the Kaioken to the extent Goku did. Throwing on the additional strain that a Super Saiyan transformation provides would be super overkill.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#7985: Aug 26th 2014 at 3:49:51 PM

Since we're on the subject, how powerful do you think the Saiyans would be without the Super Saiyan transformation? It's effectively their Game-Breaker and one of the primary things that keeps them ahead in the Arms Race above everyone else.

So basically, how powerful would Goku and/or Vegeta be without it?

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#7986: Aug 26th 2014 at 4:01:07 PM

Goku and Vegeta are most likely still not capable of beating Frieza without at least using the higher levels of the Kaio-ken.

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#7987: Aug 26th 2014 at 5:43:43 PM

As Saiga pointed out earlier to my own thoughts on the matter, the Saiyans are still so far ahead of the rest of the cast as to be pretty much untouchable even without the Super Saiyan transformation, with the exception of the insanely powerful Frieza, who really does earn his title of Strongest Warrior in the Universe. The zenkai boosts received on Namek are the real Game-Breaker the Saiyans got buffing them to hell and back.

When Goku arrived on Namek, his power level was 90,000; 180,000 while using the Kaioken against Captain Ginyu. After receiving a zenkai from his injuries in the whole Ginyu shpeal, his power level became 3,000,000; had Goku become a Super Saiyan with the power level he reached Namek with, his power level as a Super Saiyan would be 4.5 million, to which Frieza would have had a hearty laugh and then curbstomped him.

His Namek zenkai did half the work of bringing him to Frieza's level. The Super Saiyan transformation only did the other half. Also, it should be noted that the reason he was at 90,000 to begin with was because of multiple zenkais during his training in space; his power level on Earth had been a paltry 8,000, which would put his Super Saiyan transformation at 400,000; powerful enough to dominate the Ginyu Force, but still be overpowered by Frieza's First Form.

The 50x boost from the Super Saiyan transformation is nice, but between Earth and Frieza, Goku shot up a permanent 375x on zenkais alone. That's almost a Super Saiyan 3 transformation he swallowed and made a permanent part of his power level.

edited 26th Aug '14 5:49:25 PM by TobiasDrake

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#7988: Aug 26th 2014 at 7:17:08 PM

Regarding Roshi, what ever happened to that Gamera he used to get to the mainland back in the first arc of Dragon Ball?

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#7989: Aug 26th 2014 at 7:22:07 PM

Namek saga Zenkais were really out of control. Well, that's what happens when you decide that your big bad should be several thousands times stronger than any of the protagonists at the beginning of the arc.

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#7990: Aug 27th 2014 at 4:23:02 AM

[up][up]Screwed by the Lawyers, I assume?

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7991: Aug 27th 2014 at 7:31:48 AM

You know, musing on this further, the gap between the humans and the Saiyans isn't really that big.

At the battle with Frieza, Goku's power level is 3,000,000 compared to Krillin's 75,000. This may seem like a lot, but we've been dealing with multipliers quite a bit lately, and crunching the numbers has made it evident that Goku is 40x Krillin's power. An impossible hypothetical Super Saiyan Krillin would be more powerful than Base Goku, which is, admittedly, Damning By Faint Praise.

"But Drake, 40x is still a TON." Yes, it is, especially compared to the gap between the Saiyans and humans on Earth; before all the zenkai escalation on Namek began, Goku and Krillin had power levels of 8,000 and 1,770, respectively; a paltry 4.5x difference between them; a colossal gain for Krillin, who rose from 206 in one year's worth of training under Kami, and also for Goku, who rose from a similarly paltry 416 under King Kai.

That Goku's power has increased at a faster rate than Krillin's is evident in the numbers, as evident by the following data:

  • Goku at Raditz = 2.02 Krillins
  • Goku at Vegeta = 4.52 Krillins
  • Goku at Ginyu Force = 6.92 Krillins
  • Goku at Frieza = 40 Krillins

Although part of this is due to Goku having access to greater training options - his jump between Raditz and Vegeta is due to training under King Kai, while his jump against the Ginyu Force is a consequence of 100x Gravity Training. Goku's zenkais allowed him to do the 100x Gravity Training in an utterly ridiculous six day period, but it was still the 100x Gravity Training that did it for him; Vegeta would go on to close the gap between himself and Goku post-Namek by doing the same.

But in general, we see that while Goku and Krillin grew at disparate rates from each other, they were never really that far apart until that final jump, wherein Goku's power level rises from 180,000 to 3,000,0000 off a single zenkai, while Krillin appears to max out at 75,000 from having his hidden potential unlocked by Guru.

"So, Drake, you have mathematically proven that the humans are hopelessly outgunned by Saiyans. What's the point?"

Well, not quite. I've proven that the humans are outgunned by Goku, not the Saiyans. Vegeta's power level was in the general vicinity of 30,000 when he fought Recoome; Krillin's Hidden Potential upgrade, given time to settle in, would have made him far more powerful than Vegeta were it not for Vegeta's far more potent zenkai upgrades. Vegeta receives a zenkai from being demolished by Recoome, putting him at 250,000, or 3.33 Krillins. Impressive, but nowhere near the gap Goku has had with Krillin.

But then Vegeta's second zenkai brings him somewhere between Piccolo's 1,000,000+ and Goku's 3,000,000; or somewhere between 13 and 40 Krillins.

"Okay, so Vegeta outclasses Krillin too because of zenkais, right?"

Absolutely.

"That's...wonderful?"

Well, let's talk about Piccolo for a moment. Piccolo doesn't get to zenkai, but discovers something just as potent: Namekian Fusion. Piccolo had a power level of 3,550 or 2.01 Krillins during the fight with Nappa, nearly as powerful as Nappa himself. After arriving on Namek, he fused with Nail - who had a power level of 42,000 or 0.56 Krillins. The combination of these two comparatively pathetic fighters resulted in the incredible power level Piccolo brought to the Frieza battle, over 1,000,0000 which, as previously established, is 13.33 Krillins.

"So Piccolo outclasses the humans tremendously as well. Where are you going with this?"

How did one fighter twice as strong as Krillin and one half as strong become a warrior 13x Krillin's power level? Because Namekian Fusion is amazing and gives ridiculously huge returns.

How did Goku and Vegeta manage to rise from a few times more powerful than Krillin to hopelessly outclassing him? Because zenkais are also amazing and give ridiculously huge returns.

Everyone on Namek got insane power boosts in order to become capable of fighting Frieza, which is how humans went from being supporting fighters to backup dancers; despite Krillin also getting an insane power boost on Namek.

In conclusion, while it would take tremendous power-wanking bullshit to make the humans capable of competing again, these numbers make it clear that it already took tremendous power-wanking bullshit to make them unable to compete in the first place; power levels on Namek were driven entirely by plot, and the idea that humans becoming strong enough to compete would be inconsistent is ridiculous, based on the fact that "power levels" and "consistency" have no business ever being in the same sentence with each other.

Goku's power level increased 375x in six days of training and one utterly broken racial feature, and that is why there is no reason any character couldn't become relevant if the plot demanded it.

edited 27th Aug '14 7:39:19 AM by TobiasDrake

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#7992: Aug 27th 2014 at 7:54:06 AM

[up]

So, basically, if not for their fancy racial traits, it wouldn't have been possible for the Saiyans and Piccolo to jump so far ahead.

But this is a symptom of making Frieza so ridiculously powerful in the first place.

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#7993: Aug 27th 2014 at 8:00:37 AM

Even with their racial traits, it was the writing decision to inflate those traits to ridiculous extremes that put them so far ahead.

So, yes, at its core, Frieza's power level is to blame. Namekian Fusion making both fighters stronger? Sure. 24x stronger? That's plot taking the place of logic.

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#7994: Aug 27th 2014 at 8:45:58 AM

Well like you said, it does make Freeza that much more of a threat even if it came at the cost of making all of the non-Saiyan and Piccolo characters effectively background objects.

But good job drake, you took the sting off somewhat; The humans being so stupidly outclassed isn't just because of the plot, but because the aliens they deal with are just naturally inclined to grow stronger after every fight and/or fuse with one another.

Basically, the humans have a ceiling while the Saiyans and Namekians do not as they can grow stronger so as long as they keep training or find another being to fuse with. There literally is no way humans can catch up unless you contrive some real bullshit to do so.

So wait, you're telling me Goku or Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat Freeza as they are now without going Super Saiyan?

edited 27th Aug '14 8:47:30 AM by BlackYakuzu94

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#7995: Aug 27th 2014 at 9:43:38 AM

We never get power levels for where the characters are from Android Saga onward, but I believe I recall Word of God or something confirming that Goku never surpassed Full Power Frieza in his base state. Even at the end of the series, Goku would have required a multiplier to beat Frieza.

He would have curbstomped Frieza with the x50 Super Saiyan multiplier at series end, but he would have needed it nonetheless.

At 100% Full Power, Frieza had a power level of 120,000,000, which is 40x Goku's already ludicrous power gains from Earth to Namek. Goku's power level continued to rise throughout the series, but the 50x, 100x, and 400x multipliers from Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3, respectively, were critical to the Saiyan characters remaining relevant against the likes of Cell or Majin Buu.

And again, I cannot state enough the importance of those Namek zenkais. For instance, Super Saiyan 3 Goku as he was when he first arrived on Namek would have a power level of 72,000,000, humiliating Frieza up until the point Frieza stopped f*cking around, hit Full Power, and ate him for lunch.

Between the zenkais and the transformation, the Super Saiyan Goku that defeated Frieza is 18,750x the Goku that fought Vegeta.

edited 27th Aug '14 9:47:04 AM by TobiasDrake

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#7996: Aug 27th 2014 at 10:30:16 AM

I don't think there was a word of god like that.

Let see... the last indication of the base Sayian power level I can recall was during early Buu saga, when Babidi ordered Dabura to get rid of the intruders, leaving only Kaioshin and three strongest ones. Dabura took out Piccolo but left the Sayians untouched. Thid would indicate that the Sayians were stronger than Piccolo while in base.

Also, while I know it's not from manga, but Toriyama wrote "Yo! Son Goku and his friends return!" and there Goten and Trunks beat up to aliens each as strong as Freeza while in base.

So yeah, all this would indicate to me that by the end of manga Goku could easily beat up Freeza without transforming into a Super Sayian.

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#7997: Aug 27th 2014 at 10:43:53 AM

Battle of Gods! That's where it was from. Beerus states that Goku's base form would not be powerful enough to defeat Frieza.

EDIT: And I'm unclear on how being stronger than post-Kami Piccolo necessarily equates to being stronger than Frieza?

Post-Kami Piccolo was able to fight evenly against Android 17 at his best which is definitely an accomplishment, but it's unclear just how powerful the Androids were. We know that 17 and 18 were vastly superior to Super Saiyan Vegeta, but what does that actually mean? The last time we got a reading on Vegeta's power level, it was at 250,000; as a Super Saiyan, his power level at that point would be 12,500,000, a mere 4 Base Gokus, and a laughable joke to Frieza. His power level increased since then, but we have no idea how much, and Goku never got to take a crack at them so we don't have anything to compare to.

We have no measure by which we can compare anything from the Android and Buu Sagas to Frieza, other than that the characters steadily got stronger by unspecified amounts.

edited 27th Aug '14 10:51:26 AM by TobiasDrake

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#7998: Aug 27th 2014 at 1:32:26 PM

But if Trunks was able to curb stomp Freeza as a Super Saiyan, wouldn't it be safe to say Vegeta could have done the same if he was capable at the time? Kami even said if I recall that Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was stronger than Trunk's when he fought 18. And Trunks himself said that the androids from the present timeline were much stronger than the ones from his own. Adding to this, Vegeta outright admitted that Piccolo was stronger than himself after fusing with Kami, even as a Super Saiyan.

So I don't get how Piccolo post-Kami fusion wouldn't be capable of beating Frieza's full powered form.

edited 27th Aug '14 1:33:04 PM by BlackYakuzu94

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#7999: Aug 27th 2014 at 1:58:52 PM

Mecha-Frieza's power level is debatable. He physically resembles Final Form Frieza without his Full Power, who had a power level of 60,000,000 at the most. Gohan claimed Frieza to be much weaker than the power he displayed against Goku, while Vegeta claimed him to be stronger - Vegeta, however, was absent for most of that fight, only glimpsing the two titans in the short span between his resurrection and being transported to Earth, so he may have the most reliable perspective on the matter.

Best case scenario, the Frieza that Trunks triumphed over as a Super Saiyan was able to match his Full Power despite not being in the proper form for it, and thus we can conclude that Trunks has a power level exceeding 2,400,0000 at Base.

However, based on all available information, Frieza is likely just as he looks, still in his <50% form, far greater than Vegeta remembers but weaker than what Gohan was able to experience, feeling their battle from a distance as he flew Piccolo to the ship, then Base Trunks would need only a measurable power level of 1,200,000 at the most, around where Piccolo was on Namek, but far inferior to Goku - as Trunks demonstrates immediately after.

Hmm...crunching numbers some more, if Vegeta's base power level is greater than 2,400,000, that would confirm that post-Kami Piccolo > Full Power Frieza. Any less than that, and it could go either way. The last time we got a measurement on him was his 250,000 while fighting Frieza, but as previously determined, Goku's power level closed a lot more ridiculous gaps than that.

edited 27th Aug '14 2:04:18 PM by TobiasDrake

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#8000: Aug 27th 2014 at 2:03:58 PM

Don't Frieza's mechanical enhancements increase his power to some degree, full-power or not?

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