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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77751: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:25:42 PM

He's a Generic Doomsday Villain, but he's the reason Gohan got such a following as a kid.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77752: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:26:19 PM

Also charisma.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77753: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:28:26 PM

[up][up]It's too bad he didn't get his reputation from his actual character...

edited 7th Feb '18 3:29:26 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77754: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:30:31 PM

For better or worse, it was an establishing moment for him nonetheless.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77755: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:32:26 PM

Oh yeah, definitely, I'm certainly able to take Cell more seriously than the other villains in his arc. I'm just comparing him to the other main DBZ villains. Cell's at his best when he's in his creepy Imperfect form, but as he rises through the forms he just becomes a generic asshole (albiet a charismatic one).

He hasn't got Vegeta's links to Goku's heritage, Freeza's Faux Affably Evil sensibilities, or Fat Buu's childish wierdness (though if we were to treat Super Buu and Kid Buu as seperate they would be waaaay at the bottom).

edited 7th Feb '18 3:34:56 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77756: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:33:41 PM

Wait what moment?

Actually it works well for him when you remeber that he is an artificially created being for the sole purpose of destruction.

The fact he is capable of conscious thought at all is a bonus.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#77757: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:34:44 PM

Cell can't even compare...

[up]Gohand going SSJ 2 I presume, that lameness.

edited 7th Feb '18 3:36:33 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77758: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:38:16 PM

Majin Boo was a fat clown, he cod still be menacing.

And Gero was menacing, until Toriyama switched tracks and knocked him down a couple of pegs. Before the fight with Goku starts he has plenty of menace, killing the civillians when Goku wants to move the fight, squeezing a dude's neck so hard it decapitates him, draining & impaling Yamcha.

Anyway, I think 16 is fine. He fits into the story beats of the arc quite well - refusing to fight, being a little weird, defending the Androids from Cell, letting Kuririn show some non-boner compassion, trying to stop Perfect Cell, motivating Gohan.

For his appearance in the future timeline, je could have just never been activated or destroyed before he could be. The Androids were vulnerable to destruction when inactive, since Kuririn thought about destroying an inactive 18.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77759: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:43:31 PM

Oh yeah, 16 is used alright. But you could give a lot of those duties to other people. You could have either 17 or 18 be the nice one, and have Piccolo be the guy who dies to inspire Gohan to go SSJ 2 (which I think would be much better, since he's the Krillin to Gohan essentially.)

edited 7th Feb '18 3:47:19 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77760: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:44:36 PM

And lose the big old lug?

Perish the thought.

edited 7th Feb '18 3:44:53 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#77761: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:48:13 PM

16 is great.

Also, I fully aware of how hellish the schedule for a Manga artistic Japan is. My issue is that Toriyama is apparently lazy even on top of that (waiting until the very last moment to draw up the entire chapter for the week).

Then again, his ability to crank out a weeks worth of work in a few days is admirable.

One Strip! One Strip!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#77762: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:48:14 PM

I really wonder what would've happened if Toriyama had kept Gero as the villain for the whole arc like he originally wanted to. Almost impossible to picture, no?

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77763: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:57:03 PM

[up] Indeed it is. Impossible to picture.

16 has also become more important in the advent of Fighter Z what with his stellar gameplay & heavy story role that delves into the origins of him & that of his family.

edited 7th Feb '18 3:57:30 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77764: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:58:47 PM

Like, 16 is great. I do like him. But I'm just saying, he's far from essential in this arc. It's totally possible to move things around.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#77765: Feb 7th 2018 at 3:59:23 PM

You could, but it's not like him being in the story hurts it.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77766: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:01:26 PM

Piccolo dying to trigger Super Saiyan 2 would be a really bad idea. Way too similar to his first death.

And you COULD make 17 or 18 the 'nice' one... but it wouldn't be anything like the way 16 was handled. You couldn't have the same story beats because 16's personality is unique, and his level of power doesn't fit the other Androids, and 17/18 had a pre-existing bond which means they can't replace 16's dynamic.

You COULD remove 16, but I think doing so would hurt the story because you lose the neat moments he had. I haven't seen a subtitute suggested that would be better.

edited 7th Feb '18 4:02:33 PM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77767: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:06:49 PM

16 isn't essential, but his role is kind of unique

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77768: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:09:01 PM

I do see your point about Piccolo dying being kind of the obvious choice and something that had already happened, but the problem with 16 dying to push Gohan beyond is that there is no relationship there, and it's just a bit emotionally manipulative. That it works at all comes down to that scene just being really well written and presented, because if there was not top-notch execution there it would basically just be Krillin's death done again but with zero investment.

Heck, you don't even neccessarily need to have a death. You could just have the entire gang be in danger and present Gohan as deciding to make a difference now when he couldn't - or wouldn't -before.

edited 7th Feb '18 4:10:33 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77769: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:10:23 PM

I mean its not like everything has to be a bare necessity.

Its the sprinkles & frosting that makes the cake so whole & delicious after all.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#77770: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:12:37 PM

This comes up a lot, but I feel like that Gohan shouldn't need an emotional connection for it to work.

It almost seems callous to present the idea that somone could die for realsies and Gohan wouldn't care enough about them to snap.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#77771: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:14:12 PM

Well, Gohan's seen people die before. This is supposed to be a moment when he snaps so hard he temporarily goes insane.

I mean, he's also seeing 5 friends, including his dad and his mentor figure, about to die, so it's not like he wasn't already being hit with unimaginable mental stress. I just think it's... eh, sort of like, Toriyama just decided "yeah, this guy will be the one to Krillin this arc" and landed on 16.

edited 7th Feb '18 4:17:16 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#77772: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:19:00 PM

19 and 20 were plenty menacing before Goku started beating the former like a drum.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#77773: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:21:59 PM

Doesn't the fact that 16 was his trigger speak more about Gohan's character? That not being able to save a life, even if he barely knew him, generate a strong emotional reaction?

Like you said, the moment itself was well executed so it's not like it needed to be anyone else

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#77774: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:22:16 PM

See, I was thinking that how there was no connection between 16 and Gohan...

And it dawned on me that it didn't matter.

Gohan was watching his friends and his father get torn apart...again, and was helpless to do anything...again.

Only he wasn't. He had the power; he knew he did, and all he had to do was bring it out, but he was unable to.

16 doesn't need to have an emotional connection to Gohan, because what he really is is the straw that broke the camels back. 16 is what Goku, and Krillin and Trunks will be if Gohan doesn't get his shit together and smear Cell across the desert floor. 16's speech made Gohan understand what he needed to do, and his death showed Gohan the price of failure. Actually, it reminded him of that price.

So yeah. 16 stays, and the scene really does work.

One Strip! One Strip!
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#77775: Feb 7th 2018 at 4:23:27 PM

Plague of Gripes totally is wrong. tongue

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

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