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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7626: Aug 1st 2014 at 5:08:36 AM

Nik has a strong bias against DBZ, yes.


Really? I disagree

And I would say a Faux Action Girl isn't actually a strong independent female character, so it can't be the textbook definition of a bad one. It's failing to achieve one rather than achieving one and doing really poorly with it.

The only argument made about her thus far is that "she sucks", that she's stronger than she should be, and she's arrogant - and then it's just Acceptable Target from there.

I'm not seeing what the acceptable target is and saying she sucks wasn't meant to be an argument, just saying that one aspect shouldn't be the basis for judging something.

Anyway on her arrogance I don't think it's justified to say that Saiyans are arrogant and therefore hers is okay. It's annoying because her arrogance is never treated negatively, most of the time she's right to be arrogant or left unchallenged and she's never actually punished for it. That is extremely frustrating to read and makes it look as though her arrogance isn't meant to be a flaw at all.

It's not so much about the spot being taken - although it's said that King Veggie was strongest - but that Hanasia being that strong really clashes with how Saiyan society works, was completely unnecessary, and added nothing. She gets this big power level and spotlight despite not having any real relevance to any of it.

So fanon having a "strongest Saiyan woman"? Again, where is the bad side?

The bad side is that she took up an inordinate amount of spotlight in that special, was a grating character, and doesn't appear to serve any purpose other than self-indulgence. She was very poorly handled. On top of that, it hurts Goku's character to come from the strongest of the Saiyans.

Oh, and it's a really poor comparison between King Vegeta and King Cold. King Vegeta is the kind of a race where position is determined by power, unlike King Cold who is explicitly weaker than Freeza. Not the same assumption at all.

Following the Laconic, Gine is closer to Mary Sue Classic than Hanasia.

Don't follow the Laconic. There is a serious problem with the laconic pages on this wiki, they're extremely inaccurate descriptions of the trope in question due to focusing on giving as little detail as possible. Sometimes even without the problem of detail they just don't match what the main page has to say at all.

That's silly. When you're writing a fanfic that aims to expand on the universe, you shouldn't pretend the canon characters just happen to be the most shining examples of any particular thing (much less everything) in their world, unless the original work's author actually intended it to be that way.

Expanding on a universe doesn't mean one-upping everything. It's also completely exaggerated to say it's pretending that the canon characters are the most shining examples - just that making your OC the best is pushing it, especially when it doesn't seem to serve any purpose but to make them look good.

edited 1st Aug '14 6:17:04 AM by Saiga

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#7627: Aug 1st 2014 at 5:35:31 AM

That list is hilariously awful. Lost some credibility when I realized that these are just the main mainstream anime, and then lost ALL credibility when I saw Naraku on there.

Vejituh da bess

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7628: Aug 1st 2014 at 5:47:55 AM

[up][up][up] Some people would say tht is missing the entire point of a villain. You aren't supposed to root for them, you are supposed to want them dead with every ounce of your soul. That's why Shou Tucker works ad having him on the same list as Vegeta is just confusing.

[up][up] Hey I grew up as addicted to DBZ as anyone else. I was a total Vegeta fanboy and everything. I still have a great fondness for it thanks to this.

But there comes a time when you have to realize there are many, many, many better series out there.

[up] Naraku is sexier.

edited 1st Aug '14 5:48:43 AM by Nikkolas

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7629: Aug 1st 2014 at 5:50:55 AM

No you don't. Subjectivity and all that jazz - it's still one of my top manga, even though I had never read the manga as a child and have completely different views of it from back then.

Also, how you're supposed to feel about a villain depends on the villain. It's not about making them the evilest bastard out there (if it was that would lead to some very bad escalation from story to story), some villains are meant to be enjoyed for their wackiness or coolness, or sympathised with because they got friendzoned and whined really hard about it because of what the hardships in their life have driven them to.

edited 1st Aug '14 5:59:44 AM by Saiga

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#7630: Aug 1st 2014 at 6:22:36 AM

Lately, I've been trying to assign power levels to non-DB characters in my own time.

It's kind of tough because most characters in most series, especially those with a Charles Atlas Superpower or those who use just about any kind of weapon, would just about invariably be under 100. And just a little over that is enough to cause a nuclear-scale explosion judging from King Piccolo. :p

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7631: Aug 1st 2014 at 6:26:53 AM

260 is the battle power Piccolo was at when he had nuke-level attacks. The Daizenshuu attributed a battle power of 100 to having the destructive power of a battleship's main gun. Which is... super vague.

Mrsunshinesprinkles Forever Gorgeous from Somewhere, crying Since: Jan, 2012
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#7632: Aug 1st 2014 at 6:30:42 AM

@Nikkolas: It doesn't miss the point of a villain. You're not always supposed to root for them to die, some villains are meant to be sympathized with, some are intentionally whacky and priceless, etc. They can't all get the same reaction from you.

edited 1st Aug '14 6:30:59 AM by Mrsunshinesprinkles

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Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7633: Aug 1st 2014 at 6:37:15 AM

[up][up][up] Eh? King Piccolo was way over 100. Tien and Goku at the 22nd Tournament were 180.

I've done that too though. S-Class Sensui from YYH is a tough one to figure out because you need to decide whether to go by feats only or use some quotes. By feats he's around Raditz or 1000. Younger Toguro probably be around 200.

Inuyasha Top Tiers are hard to place because they have a lot of hax and not just raw destructive power. They're in some weird grey area clearly above 22nd Tournament level but maybe nto quite young King Piccolo level. On the other hand, they have, as I said, hax to complicate matters.

It also depends on what statements you take as fact in Z as well. Could 18,000 Vegeta destroy Earth? And how much "destruction" would he cause? Just kill all life on the planet and maybe sink some continents or reduce the whole thing to rubble Death Star style?

Assuming Vegeta could Death Star the planet at 18,000 it becomes even harder to give accurate estimates. How are we supposed to know these other anime series villains are in the millions or even hundreds of thousands? They can easily destroy a planet but does that put them closer to Captain Ginyu or final form Freeza?

Basically you can only do Pre-Z or early Z P Ls with anything resembling accuracy. After that you just get into completely unknown territory.

And then you get to the Chousin who have a power level of several gajillions.

edited 1st Aug '14 6:39:39 AM by Nikkolas

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#7634: Aug 1st 2014 at 6:40:10 AM

I've done it as well, but on a completely different scale so that I wasn't directly comparing the characters to Dragon Ball ones. Just as a way of seeing how I felt the characters in the series stacked up against each other.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7635: Aug 1st 2014 at 6:43:58 AM

Well that actually makes sense. I enjoy ranking characters by power level too although I've never really assigned numbers. I prefer the more simple YYH S Class, A Class, B Class method if i use anything.

No wait, I did a Final Fantasy VII one I think as kind of a joke. it was based on DBZ Pls though.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
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#7636: Aug 1st 2014 at 6:53:25 AM

[up][up][up]Yeah, I was misremembering Piccolo's level. Whoops :P

But yeah, stronger characters are a lot harder to figure out. The strongest character that I can put a number on is Jenny Wakeman, who had a Power Level of around 5,000,350 according to the Expository Theme Tune, but I somehow doubt that she'd actually be able to overpower Second Form Frieza, who has a fifth of that. Survive against, maybe, fight a close battle against, probably, but not overpower. Then I wonder about if she's Unskilled, but Strong due to her clear immaturity and lack of knowledge on how to effectively utilize her power throughout the series.

Skill level brings an entirely different animal into the picture when it comes to figuring out a given character's power.

edited 1st Aug '14 6:54:12 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
DoctorDiabolical So pure. Since: Mar, 2010
So pure.
#7637: Aug 1st 2014 at 8:42:51 AM

[up] x11 - The post I responded to wasn't specifically criticizing OCs who were better than the canon characters at everything though, it was criticizing OCs who were better than the canon characters at anything.

I agree that an OC outdoing all the canon characters is Mary Sue territory, but having (just for example) aliens with comparable power to Frieza's elites, or a Jonin more skilled than Asuma in a Naruto fic, would just be realistic within the scope of their respective universes.

IMO, Hanasia falls into that category, or perhaps just barely outside. She's made out to be the strongest of her race, in U3, but the U3 Saiyans are some of the weakest Saiyans, and the U3 characters in general aren't even close to the strongest or best characters in the fancomic.

edited 1st Aug '14 8:43:57 AM by DoctorDiabolical

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
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#7638: Aug 1st 2014 at 9:12:54 AM

Senki Zesshou Symphogear characters are probably post cell saga, as is Sora from Kingdom Hearts..

Watch Symphogear
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7639: Aug 1st 2014 at 9:19:09 AM

Wait, what? Sora could beat Cell? Um...how?

edited 1st Aug '14 9:20:28 AM by Nikkolas

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#7640: Aug 1st 2014 at 9:19:40 AM

I always thought that a power level of 300 or above and you can bring total devastation to large majorities of the world. I mean with a power level you can already one shot the moon without breaking a sweat. Roshi and Piccolo prove that.

I mean the Z-Figthers must of had some insane ki controlling lessons to not blow up the world when casually throwing ki blast if training or fighting someone.

Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
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#7641: Aug 1st 2014 at 9:34:06 AM

He's scalable to Twilight xemnas, who's power is on par with Kingdom Hearts itself.

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FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#7642: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:10:11 AM

And I would say a Faux Action Girl isn't actually a strong independent female character, so it can't be the textbook definition of a bad one. It's failing to achieve one rather than achieving one and doing really poorly with it.

A Faux Action Girl is a poorly-written female character.

Anyway on her arrogance I don't think it's justified to say that Saiyans are arrogant and therefore hers is okay. It's annoying because her arrogance is never treated negatively, most of the time she's right to be arrogant or left unchallenged and she's never actually punished for it. That is extremely frustrating to read and makes it look as though her arrogance isn't meant to be a flaw at all.

Well I can't argue against personal preference, but she's not "right" to be arrogant all of the time. She had one actual battle in Universe 3, which was against Dodoria, and she didn't actually win until she decompressed the ship they were fighting in. This is about as far as her arrogance goes.

The next time she's seen fighting, she'd already been killed and absorbed by Raichi, with her power level boosted by his Hate Machine, and she was one of the Ghosts that was killed by Hirudegarn.

I don't see how that's frustrating to read. Until the character takes the spotlight while being an unlikable, invincible character, it just doesn't bug me. Say if she showed up for an entire chapter and kept smack-talking Majin Buu or Frieza, then I'd agree.

It's not so much about the spot being taken - although it's said that King Veggie was strongest

Although that doesn't rule out other fandom explanations.

- but that Hanasia being that strong really clashes with how Saiyan society works, was completely unnecessary, and added nothing. She gets this big power level and spotlight despite not having any real relevance to any of it.

Hanasia clashes with how Saiyan society works because she's a very powerful, Saiyan Elite? What part of Saiyan society was established here that Hanasia clashes with?

The bad side is that she took up an inordinate amount of spotlight in that special, was a grating character, and doesn't appear to serve any purpose other than self-indulgence/

Subjective.

Don't follow the Laconic. There is a serious problem with the laconic pages on this wiki, they're extremely inaccurate descriptions of the trope in question due to focusing on giving as little detail as possible. Sometimes even without the problem of detail they just don't match what the main page has to say at all.

To call Hanasia a Mary Sue is absurd. Gine, a "nice Saiyan wife", in a race of established barbarians-turned-warmongers, married to a man who is/was an established mercenary who barely gave a damn about his newborn son. This is a race of people who send newborns to low-threat planets if the newborn is considered weak.

That, to me, is not a Mary Sue.

A Mary Sue is a character that is flawless, always gets the last laugh, is the most exotic, beautiful creature in the known universe, and talks about themselves a lot. No matter what philosophy, morality, or religion is being debated, they're always given the high ground, somehow.

Gine, however, is just a serious contradiction of the image I've built up of Saiyans for as long as I've known about this series. A ridiculously unnecessary contradiction that, unfortunately, can and will be accepted because Toriyama didn't personally fill in the backstory of Goku's parents until now. It hurts Goku's character because while there was a believable story in place, we now know that his parents were loving, caring parents despite all evidence to the contrary - and Goku now rejected not only his culture and species, he rejected two people who actually cared about him. And he'll never know the difference.

On top of that, it hurts Goku's character to come from the strongest of the Saiyans.

It really doesn't. Vegeta came from the "strongest" of the Saiyans and still managed to be inferior to Goku.

EDIT: This brings about a thought on shonen heroes that's bothered me for some time, so this is a somewhat unpleasant tangent.

I see it brought up now and then how it's apparently a bad thing when "the main hero comes from really good genes". It makes any and all gains they make "meaningless". They're not "really" winning any of their battles.

I think that's utter bullshit. Yeah, the hero has one parent who was Made of Iron. So why shouldn't he be, in turn, Made of Iron? Its as if any "good" shonen protagonist must be genetically inferior to all of the bad guys and forced to level up.

In this case, with Hanasia, just because she's really strong as an adult doesn't just transfer everything to Goku. Goku started off incredibly weak and worked his way up, having a never-say-die attitude and multiple training opportunities. He doesn't have to "come from nothing" to be an effective, strong protagonist. Even "coming from something", he still starts off weak. Hard work still gets him where he needs to be.

If giving Goku a strong parent hurts his character, then does it hurt Gohan's character because his father was already considered the strongest man alive at that point in the series? Because Gohan's big character development was his Unstoppable Rage slowly coming to a head, and we still watch him train like hell for everything he gains. Does it hurt Pan, Trunks, or Goten - coming from really strong genes?

Ha ha. "Gines".

edited 1st Aug '14 11:01:01 AM by FOFD

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#7643: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:16:20 AM

[up]Did you forget that the last point was the entire moral of the show? Vegeta coasted on his blood, while Goku worked hard. The series made sure to drive it home that that was why Goku's stronger despite his heritage.

Hanasia being the strongest of all of them does screw with that.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
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#7644: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:42:33 AM

Vegeta came from the "strongest" of the Saiyans and still managed to be inferior to Goku.

That's the point.

That Goku, through hard work and effort, was able to surpass Vegeta, whose strength is God-given by virtue of his birth and heritage. Having Hanasia be the strongest of the Saiyans changes that to, "Goku surpassed Vegeta by having even MORE God-given strength by virtue of GREATER birth and heritage."

GOKU: Even a low-class can surpass an elite if he works hard enough!

That line is a major theme of post-Raditz Dragon Ball, consistently featuring villains who are powerful by merit of birth overcome by heroes who worked hard to earn their power.

edited 1st Aug '14 10:43:13 AM by TobiasDrake

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#7645: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:43:12 AM

[up][up]

It doesn't.

Having Hanasia be the strongest of the Saiyans changes that to, "Goku surpassed Vegeta by having even MORE God-given strength by virtue of GREATER birth and heritage."

Even with Hanasia being the strongest, Goku ends up being hilariously weak for an infant, and it's not even like with Gohan, where he has those bizarre bursts of strength. Hanasia is far stronger than Goku was during the Saiyan Saga, so by DBM canon, heritage did 'jack for Goku compared to Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. No exceptional strength compared to most Saiyan children, compared to Gohan or Goten. It's all still fought for, all hard-earned.

the entire moral of the show? Vegeta coasted on his blood, while Goku worked hard. The series made sure to drive it home that that was why Goku's stronger despite his heritage.

Vegeta trained like an animal after Goku went Super Saiyan, and after losing to 18. It barely got him anywhere.

edited 1st Aug '14 10:53:57 AM by FOFD

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#7646: Aug 1st 2014 at 10:53:35 AM

Vegeta trained like an animal after Goku went Super Saiyan, and after losing to 18. It barely got him anywhere.

It closed the gap between him and Frieza-Saga Goku, gave him a Super Saiyan transformation, made him powerful enough to make short work of Android 19 and put Android 20 on the run. Another set of training made him powerful enough to curbstomp Imperfect Cell.

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Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7647: Aug 1st 2014 at 11:12:11 AM

A Faux Action Girl is not inherently a bad female character. It could just be that she wanted to be an Action Girl for various reasons but later came to the realization that was not her passion or something she was good at.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#7648: Aug 1st 2014 at 11:25:02 AM

An 'aspect' of the poorly-written, strong, independent woman, wouldn't you say? Just tailored to the physical side.

Regardless, even if my reference to that trope is wrong, I disagree with Hanasia being the "textbook definition of how to poorly write a strong, independent woman" solely because "everything else about Hanasia sucks hard. Actually, her kick-ass-ness also sucks hard with her because it's too much. Super special strongest Saiyan who also fights outside her weight class?"

edited 1st Aug '14 11:28:32 AM by FOFD

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#7649: Aug 1st 2014 at 11:26:59 AM

Vegeta's Training was able to keep his Power close to Goku without actually catching up completely. The training made him stronger yes, it didn't really make him a better fighter. So Goku would just remain the better of the 2 in terms of skill, even if he was actually weaker.

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
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#7650: Aug 1st 2014 at 6:38:05 PM

I just saw it as Goku being more spiritual minded and thoughtful; it was his idea to instead of burning your power, to conserve it and bring it out when you need it, contrast to Vegeta who constantly worked up to simply expunge as much energy as possible.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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