TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75026: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:59:36 PM

@Saiga: Its not like I think Freeza is some amazingly written villain or anything, in fact he's pretty two dimensional. But most DB villains are one-dimensional, so that still puts him a step up.

I already know how little you care for Freeza, so I'm not here to argue our biases.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75027: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:06:45 PM

I know, but I really don't think he is two-dimensional - or if he is, so would the other villains be. I'm not exactly sure how we're defining dimensions.

The TOP has him acting with more nuance, but before that he was incredibly one-dimensional and this is exemlified in his RF behaviour where he behaves absolutely no differently to both the Freeza arc and his Mecha Freeza behaviour.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75028: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:10:04 PM

I mean, do I really need to point out Super treats it's characters horribly? That goes without saying.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#75029: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:10:11 PM

[up]x6

Don't have it involve "5 pure-hearted" Saiyans. Anything but that. It seems way too contrived. Have them train with Beerus or Whis to get it, but I guess we can't really go that route without changing the plot significantly.

edited 9th Jan '18 5:10:22 PM by hardcorefakes

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#75030: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:13:06 PM

5x[up] Ah, so the Fake Super Saiyan. It's a pretty good design, I could get on board with that.

edited 9th Jan '18 5:13:22 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#75031: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:13:11 PM

Frieza's doing pretty good now all things considered.

He's learning apparently.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75032: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:18:20 PM

It's pretty funny how reminiscent SSG is of the FSSJ.

But yea, I agree that it was phased out a bit too quickly for Blue.

The funny thing about Blue is that it's used mainly to build up Freeza. To show that he can match god level power. The downside is that it makes the transformation look really weak.

You know what you can do, have Goku use SSJG first and fight Golden with that and then go Blue to dominate. You let Freeza establish his power, God gets another showing, and Blue looks powerful.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75033: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:18:41 PM

[up][up] Sorry that's movie 4. Movie 5 is Cooler, and a lot of the promo art came out before Super Saiyan was coloured in the manga so Toriyama's colour scheme had orange-y gold hair and red eyes. I'd like it to be not too different from regular SS so the characters would just identify it as SS in the story.

[up] I like that Blue wasn't actually introduced as the strongest thing in that fight. But then, I prefer it being as strong as God so its strength is already established. If its meant to be stronger than God, it really fails to convey that in the movie

edited 9th Jan '18 5:20:27 PM by Saiga

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#75034: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:22:31 PM

Let's be fair, a lot of DB villains are like that...the likes of Freeza are kind of the exception, hence his breakout status.

True. That's one of the reasons I liked Goku Black. I don't think anyone is going to argue that Zamasu is an original villain type, but he felt refreshing in the context of Dragonball.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75035: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:28:56 PM

[up][up] Blue is established as being stronger than God, this was confirmed. I agree that it's not conveyed well in the movie due to Freeza already being stronger than it, and the complete absence of God itself.

My idea was to let God have one last showing, and then debut Blue. Have Goku come up with the idea of combining God and Super Saiyan to create Blue.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75036: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:36:05 PM

Oh I know Blue is stronger. Just that when RF was still young it was a little ambigious, especially since Goku could have grown stronger as an individual between the movies.

I'm just saying hypothetically, ut may have worked better to have the form be equal to God so the audience can understand its power much easier.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#75037: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:41:21 PM

I do agree with a lot of what was said here.

Blue needed a better showing in the long run.

Maybe Toriyama is trying to subvert the idea of new transformations being better.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75038: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:42:30 PM

That'd be hard to convey since you'd only have Beerus as a frame of reference, and the fact that Blue itself wasn't foreshadowed very well.

That and if it's only going to be as powerful as God, just use God itself instead.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#75039: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:44:13 PM

Yeah, if it's only going to be equal to god....why have it? Could just go ahead with SSG then.

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#75041: Jan 9th 2018 at 5:55:59 PM

So I guess my ignorance is showing here. I haven't watched Super since the Universe 6 Tournament and I thought Blue was supposed to be as strong as God. The difference is that you can use the power without a ritual.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#75042: Jan 9th 2018 at 6:04:09 PM

[up][up]

True. But, if you want to go full-corporate insanity, design something that is much more outrageous than a Super Saiyan 1 recolor. I'm talking about Super Saiyan 7 rainbow-colored hair here. Dark eyeliner, yellow eyes. Edgy clothes from Hot Topic.

The kiddies would buy that shit in droves.

edited 9th Jan '18 6:04:39 PM by hardcorefakes

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75043: Jan 9th 2018 at 6:22:27 PM

I explained my reasonong before. God required a ritual and had a time limit, and I like the idea of having a new form for purely practical reasons.

Yeah, you could say they just train to make God a normal form they transform into without a time limit (as Super has done) but I never liked that. I think God should stay as being different to the other forms.

So when Goku and Vegeta want the power of God but for it to work like their Super Saiyan forms, they use that form to bring out God's power. The power of God is still relevant, as is the original form, and you drastically cut down on the amount of forms Goku and Vegeta which brings simplicity and reduces bloat.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#75044: Jan 9th 2018 at 6:49:57 PM

I feel that's somewhat confusing; I don't mind Goku absorbing God into himself, and being able to access it himself later. But using an entirely different form for that kinda muddles it. Because I remember trying to figure out when Blue came out, if it was as strong as or stronger than God. There wasn't much of a frame of reference.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#75045: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:08:50 PM

It wouldn't be confusing if they just explained it that way.

I feel like Blue just had a vague enough explanation that it could be taken multiple ways

If it helps, I would have had a small gap between Goku getting 'Saiyan Beyond God' (being able to use his full power without Super Saiyan) and Super Saiyan Beyond God, so the explanation doesn't have to be delivered all at once.

edited 9th Jan '18 7:10:46 PM by Saiga

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#75046: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:31:58 PM

Wow, Karrot rarely ever cries during the series does he?

They had to use 2 movies in order to make a list...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75047: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:35:59 PM

Personally, I wouldn't change much, plot-wise. Mostly just Power Level tweaks.

I'd establish that Goku got much weaker after Battle of Gods, and he's been working his way up since. This is partially to make the gigantic gap between Beerus and Goku later on not as jarring. I'd keep Whis' line that Goku and Vegeta are but small trees next to Beerus' giant tree castle. Freeza's training location would be near a black hole. I'd make it explicit that Goku and Vegeta can tap into Godly Ki in their base but also choose not to.

Normal Ki -> Yellow Super Saiyan forms (only slightly stronger than in Battle of Gods)

Godly Ki -> Super Saiyan Blue

Goku uses both a weaker SSG (between Godly Ki and SSB) and Kaioken against Hit, only taking it up to times 4 though. Hit uses all of his extra non-lethal techniques against Goku in their tournament fight. Goku Black is much stronger than Blue in Rose, and Goku and Vegeta are able to overwhelm him by using KKx4 and SSB2, respectively. Goku uses KKx10 against Fused Zamasu. Toppo is SSB2 level and Vegeta unlocks SSB3 against Jiren, which is only slightly weaker than KKx20.

In terms of power, SSG Goku during Battle of Gods is comparable to SSB KKx20 Goku during the Tournament of Power. Beerus would probably be comparable to a hypothetical SSB KKx40 Goku. Ultra Instinct is a 50 times multiplier over Blue.

Oh yeah, I'd also include a line establishing that Kafla is slightly stronger than Vegetto because Kale and Caulifla are in lesbians with each other. I'd also make Kafla weaker than in canon, beating God Goku using Controlled Berserk Super Saiyan, Blue Kaioken Goku using Mastered Berserk Super Saiyan, and fighting Ultra Instinct Goku using Berserk Super Saiyan 3.

edited 9th Jan '18 7:49:02 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#75048: Jan 9th 2018 at 8:30:21 PM

I'd keep Whis' line that Goku and Vegeta are but small trees next to Beerus' giant tree castle.

Pretty sure that line about Godly power being a castle was supposed to be foreshadowing for Super Saiyan Blue Super Saiyan, not a comparison to Beerus.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#75049: Jan 9th 2018 at 8:42:14 PM

The line is:

"Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high (motions towards a small tree)."

"The level of the gods" is a term frequently thrown around in this series, mostly in reference to a God of Destruction and a level of power approaching it.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#75050: Jan 9th 2018 at 11:44:57 PM

[up][up]

Weren't they already close to being SSB level when Whis said that?

Makes sense, if Gods of Destruction are supposed to be overwhelmingly powerful beings. You shouldn't be able to surpass them just by holding hands and turning Super Saiyan on top of that. You should need more power than that, like Ultra Instinct.


Total posts: 130,800
Top