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DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#74976: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:15:31 AM

In more amusing news, apparently Sean Schemmel and Chris Sabat got into it on Twitter over the Commeson fight (which the dub just reached), which eventually culminated in Sabat challenging Schemmel to a duel in Dragonball FighterZ.

So, is Vegeta or Goku better at video games? We shall see...

(Also, apparently Sabat cannot spell "Saiyan". If this were a spelling bee I think Sean would automatically win just for that.)

edited 9th Jan '18 7:16:32 AM by DarkHunter

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74977: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:18:19 AM

Goku and Vegeta play video games to see who is better, the winner winds up being Goten and Trunks on controllers 3 and 4.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#74978: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:19:12 AM

I have $500 on Sabat.

This song needs more love.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74979: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:47:02 AM

Sean will win because Goku always is better than Vegeta.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74980: Jan 9th 2018 at 8:24:04 AM

You know, I'd be interested in seeing a special detailing the events of the unseen timeline, where the Androids are dealt with without Trunks getting much stronger and Cell doesn't exist, aside from his fetus form.

edited 9th Jan '18 9:02:55 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74981: Jan 9th 2018 at 8:56:01 AM

[up] Well, when Cell awakens he's almost certainly not going to be strong enough to fight the heroes; even if they don't get the higher Ascended Saiyan forms I think their combined strength, especially if Piccolo gets the Nameless Namek power boost, would be enough to trump Imperfect Cell.

The real question is... what happens when Babidi shows up?

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74982: Jan 9th 2018 at 10:04:05 AM

Remember how Kid Buu blew up the Earth after killing a ton of people as Fat Buu and then performing genocide on the rest as Super Buu? Probably something akin to that without the magic fixes at the end.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#74983: Jan 9th 2018 at 10:54:47 AM

they were technically still inside his ship, like randomness said. Remember that when Babidi teleported them, the doorway to the next floor transported with them, and was still fully functional

Makes sense I guess.

on a different topic

One quick rant I have for fixing Super is to just remove Ressurrection F entirely.

That movie's events take up space and, without it, Freeza returning would probably be a lot more special. Pretty much everything about Freeza improves without it, and potentially improves other things. I'd even say Freeza's second third return would have worked better than the film.

    All of these things would be better if you got rid of RF 

  • Frost's introduction. Seeing Frost's forms would have been more nostalgic if we hadn't just seen Freeza in the arc prior. He wouldn't feel like such a So Last Season villain if Freeza hadn't introduced a vastly superior golden form. Instead, the big question on everyone's minds is why have a "Good Freeza" now when we just got "Bad Freeza" back? Take out RF, space this out more, and you get more value out of "OG Freeza" meeting "Discount Freeza" during the tournament.
  • Freeza's golden form. Instead of 4 months spent beating up his henchmen, how about Freeza spending decades concentrating on killing Goku, his last thoughts being his death and defeat? I could buy that as a reason for Freeza to gain such ludicrous strength by simply refining his power - after all, what was Gohan's training to achieve Super Saiyan if nothing more than learning to get past his mental barriers? Vegeta did the same thing. Yeah, I'd take that over "4-months of squats, sit-ups, and 10km runs."
    • Further, imagine if Freeza got revived, went to Baba's, took out the assassins, and then busted out his golden form just to scare Goku? Like, yeah, "you thought this was my final form? I spent years thinking about Super Saiyans and I devised a counter to it.
    • And then you could better explain Freeza's tactics in the tournament. Freeza is aware that his Golden Form isn't perfect and that he needs to watch the energy drain - he might have unlocked this new power, but it's still more concept than anything. He'll hang back and not waste energy because his Golden Form isn't battle-tested yet.
    • And then you could have him parallel Goku's growth in this tournament - like Goku, Freeza would be testing his own limits and gaining strength throughout the tournament.
  • Freeza's attitude. Again, Freeza having decades of intense concentration calming him down , instead of x weeks/months between RF and the TOP, makes a lot more sense to me.
    • RF made Freeza cruel and hot-headed to the point he recklessly killed his own subordinates. It wouldn't be hard to mistake the Freeza in RF and the one in the TOP as two different characters. Take out RF and, while still pissed about having to work with Goku, his actions in the TOP are more in line with his original personality. He's had years of mental torture to reign in the worst parts of his personality.
  • Krillin coming back. At this point it's easier for me to describe the scene I would have liked to see. Imagine if, rather than Freeza just come back and shock everyone, imagine if we'd seen the filler episode with Goku and Krillin going to that island to get Master Roshi's pot first. Imagine if that had been the first we'd seen of Freeza in Super - Buu is still on the team - and Krillin got over that trauma. So he's good, and then, last minute, Goku walks in with the actual Freeza. For the first time in years, Krillin is standing directly in front of the alien who blew him to smithereens. Imagine the shock of that and what Krillin would be going through - instead of Krillin getting targeted in RF and having to deal with Freeza-phobia twice more.
  • The tension of Freeza joining the team. Nobody trusts him yeah, but they just dealt with him and his forces last month. This is less of a What Moment and more of a What the Hell, Hero? kind of moment to us and them. Imagine the tensions that would brew if Vegeta, Krillin, Piccolo, and Gohan had to suddenly deal with Freeza again, the rivalries that would be unsettled. Vegeta never whooped Freeza's ass here and he's raring to go, and Freeza's got new, gold-colored ass-kicking gloves he's dying to test out on Vegeta. This creates even more tension with Freeza on the team.
  • Super Saiyan Blue. Imagine if, rather than Goku just deciding to pull this new form out and getting backhanded by Freeza moments later, Goku had revealed this form against Goku Black instead. It'd have a lot more impact being introduced at this moment; it's as if his own color scheme is defying his evil counterpart's.
    • Let's get crazy - how would you feel about the power/threat escalation if, say, Goku had stuck with Super Saiyan God in Champa's tournament and, rather than Super Kaioken Blue, unveiled Super Saiyan Blue instead? Wouldn't that feel more natural? Hit would still turn the tables and we'd still have a fun moment. Then, next arc, Goku has a better grasp on Super Saiyan Blue, and the Black arc continues, but Super Saiyan Blue is fresher and we didn't watch Goku get backhanded within seconds of its introduction. No, instead he actually wrecked Hit with it, and the fight ended because Goku didn't think Hit could fight him seriously.
      • Instead, let's have Kaioken be Goku's trump card during the Black arc, during an arc that better resembles the dire situation Goku was in when he first used the technique.
      • It fits better there because it's being used in the same capacity it originally was - Goku uses it briefly to score a hit but his body is wrecked afterward. But what did we get instead with Kaioken Blue? Goku getting "ki sickness" that disappeared after a single episode.
        • Let's get crazier. How about "ki sickness" actually affects the main plot instead of just being filler? Let's say Goku falls ill and that's when he gets attacked by those robbers - Goku can't even fly with his ki, so blocking bullets is far more difficult. What if that ki sickness actually stayed for awhile and Whis noticed it when he was training with Goku, shortly before Goku remembered the Tournament and went to see Zeno? What if this big, awesome tournament was about to go down and Goku isn't at full strength?
          • Yes, it's a series of what-ifs, but work with me here. Without RF in the way, Blue getting introduced in Champa's tournament, and Kaioken Blue introduced during the Black arc instead, "FILLER ki sickness" becomes "CANON ki sickness!"
  • Freeza and Goku punching each other before Freeza agrees to join Goku's team. This moment was cool, but it was late. This should have been the iconic moment of Freeza's return, but it feels wasted because he's already returned, he's already unveiled his new power, he's already had Goku shot in the back, etc. note . Instead imagine Freeza, returned to the height of being an actual menace instead of being a punching bag, swearing to never take orders from his mortal enemy. Imagine both of them hitting the ground, forced into Teeth-Clenched Teamwork by powers far greater than theirs. This is their first reunion in decades.
    • This would have been a lot cooler than Goku just putting up with Freeza's shit, and maybe I'd believe him more when he tries to persuade Freeza to join. There's less bad blood between them without RF's events.
  • Persuading Freeza at all. You ever notice how people tend to forgive past sins the more years have passed between them? Take out RF, have the decision to resurrect Freeza be an absolute last minute decision. I'd buy Goku being willing to work with Freeza since it's been decades since Freeza died. Goku's moved past it. Include RF, and it's only been weeks since Freeza murdered Goku's entire world.
    • Further, if you took out RF, I could see Beerus "vetting" Freeza. He's the strongest mortal besides Vegeta and Goku that Beerus has faced, and without RF, he hasn't blown up the planet. So why not recruit him? As far as Beerus is concerned he was going to destroy Freeza on a whim, but he didn't have any active contempt for him. He was fully willing to let Freeza fight the heroes in RF, wasn't he?
  • Freeza's theme song. Imagine if that had played when Freeza went Golden in Hell, or when he fought the assassins, instead of when Freeza got out of the tank.
  • Kale, Caulifa, build-up to theother universes - without RF that's, what, a good 10-15 episodes of space we've cleared? How about we devote some of that to team-building before the TOP?
  • Gohan. long version  Short version: just watch this.
    • Further, we put up with less "Gohan sucks in Super" by taking out RF.
  • The nostalgia of seeing Tien, Roshi, and Krillin fighting again. If the point of the TOP is to be nostalgic and see everyone fight and be relevant again - would it not be more exciting if we hadn't seen them all fight Freeza's army? This fight wasn't particularly impressive anyway, and all it did was show how ineffective they all are against monsters like Freeza. The anime even had Vegeta kill the remainder of Freeza's soldiers IIRC, so what was the point of showing this? At least the film had them actually handle the army on their own.
    • The less we see of everyone, the greater it is to see them come back.

In short:

  • Frost would have left more of an impression
  • Golden Freeza and Super Saiyan Blue would be more plausible
  • Freeza's tactics in the TOP would make more sense.
  • Freeza's characterization and development would be a lot stronger
  • Krillin's characterization would be more consistent
  • Freeza being picked for the team, Goku's tolerance of his antics, and the tense confrontations that would result would would be more interesting than what we got
  • The Goku-Freeza cross counter knockout would've been a lot more impactful
  • Gohan and Freeza would suck less
  • Bringing everybody back for the TOP would be a lot more poignant

Doesn't fix Roshi being on the team, Goten, Trunks, and Buu not being on the team, or 18 being ineffectual. But I can live with those things as long as Freeza being on the team serves some kind of narrative purpose.

edited 9th Jan '18 9:15:26 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74984: Jan 9th 2018 at 12:31:55 PM

Which Frieza theme song? The one from Kai? I don't think they can use that for legal reasons.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#74985: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:53:33 PM

ROF's entire purpose was to introduce Golden Frieza and Super Saiyan Blue. And that angels can reverse time. That's about it...

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74986: Jan 9th 2018 at 1:55:05 PM

At the very least the movie gave us a spectacular action sequence where most of the Z-Fighters got to shine for once.

Hell its better than the actual fights with Golden Frieza.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74987: Jan 9th 2018 at 2:12:14 PM

Freeza El Dorado

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#74988: Jan 9th 2018 at 2:48:24 PM

One big plot hole in Cell's timeline is that he states that Trunks killed King Cold and Frieza. If that happened in his timeline then that Trunks would prevent the android apocalypse happening like in Trunks' timeline, which is supposed to be near-identical up until Trunks goes back in time and creates the main timeline

Another big plot hole is if Trunks' timeline is the result of Cell's time travel, then there should be a second Cell to absorb the androids when the android apocalypse happened

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74989: Jan 9th 2018 at 2:55:54 PM

I'm not really sure what you're talking about for the first part, but the answer to the second is "branching timelines", there wouldn't be a second Cell, because the timeline splits at the point of changing the past.

It's not that hard to understand, going back into the past doesn't change the timeline the character left.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74990: Jan 9th 2018 at 2:57:19 PM

Cell doesn't state that, it's just implied and yeah it's wrong. We know Cell comes from a timeline where Goku kills Cold and Freeza.

The second point is incorrect as Cell takes longer to complete so is only born well after the apocalypse which leads to him needing to kill Trunks in timeline 1 and getting killed by Trunks in timeline 3.

Either way he only appears after the Androids are dealt with by Trunks

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74991: Jan 9th 2018 at 2:59:21 PM

In regards to fetus-Cell, would it have been possible to raise him right or is his destiny sealed by his bio-data even without Gero's computer?

edited 9th Jan '18 2:59:33 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74992: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:00:46 PM

Well, we know that the Androids can be good if they make the choice; I think deep down, Cell's just an evil person; that's the choice he made.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#74993: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:03:47 PM

It seems that he was "raised" by Gero's recorded voice in his tank, how else would he have learned to speak, who the Z Fighters were, or that he needed to absorb the Androids?

I think if he were removed from Gero's influence at a young enough age, he might have been capable of being good... though he might have still felt a hunger to absorb people with his tail.

Then again, he didn't really seem to be "programmed" to kill Goku. Once he achieved perfection it appears his programmed purpose was fulfilled, and from there he just went with his inherited Saiyan instincts to fight strong opponents.

So... I think it's after he became perfect that he had a chance to display his true character, and he just decided it would be fun to murder everyone.

edited 9th Jan '18 3:07:16 PM by DarkHunter

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74994: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:06:43 PM

I am reminded of how Abdriged-17 said they pretty much had orders to kill Goku implanted in them while being designed to repeat on maximum in their sleep & I can assume its similar to the canon even if its not explicit.

So yeah its even worse for Cell since he heard Gero's voice since his literal beginning.

edited 9th Jan '18 3:06:58 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74995: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:13:21 PM

Yes, but they were able to eventually become good... in one timeline.

Android 16 became good pretty easily (continuing established Dragonball lore that Androids can develop a sense of morality).

Cell, however, seems to really only care about fighting and killing at the end of the day.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74996: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:15:59 PM

Cell cared about becoming complete. After that, he just wanted to have fun and "fun" for him meant seeing how terrified he could make people before killing them. Fighting was fun too, but only because he never actually expected anyone to be strong enough to beat him. We saw how he reacted when that actually happened.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74997: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:18:10 PM

Helps that he is quite literally a living weapon & 16's gentleness was attributed as a flaw by Gero.

Odd that Gero seemed to forgot put kill Goku as one of Cell's priorities.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#74998: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:19:57 PM

I still think that Cell would have been a prime candidate for the Tournament of Power. Cooperating with Goku to beat up a bunch of strong people in a tournament seems right up his alley. Moreso than Frieza anyway.

edited 9th Jan '18 3:20:28 PM by LordVatek

This song needs more love.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74999: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:31:08 PM

The difference is Freeza's popular in Japan and Cell isn't...

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Moth13 Since: Sep, 2010
#75000: Jan 9th 2018 at 3:35:37 PM

Cell has too many spots so the animators hate drawing him. Nothing a new form couldn't fix though.


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