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LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#74951: Jan 8th 2018 at 6:39:21 PM

So what I'm getting from this is that travelling to the future is easy but seeing the future is impossible while travelling to the past is impossible but seeing the past is easy.

Got it.

This song needs more love.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#74952: Jan 8th 2018 at 7:11:25 PM

Everything's easier if you've ever done acid.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74953: Jan 8th 2018 at 9:49:54 PM

"And if your Uncle Joey doesn't like Roshi, he can fuck off to Fazoli's."

I feel like this discussion about power levels got off the rails at some point.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74954: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:02:45 AM

No, Pushover's got it wrong. When Trunks goes back in time to kill both the androids and Cell, it must be to a different timeline than the original timeline since in the original timeline Cell killed him and went to the main timeline.

This means that there are two Trunks; one got killed by Cell who went to a different timeline and affected a bunch of different stuff which means when the other Trunks returned to a timeline he was prepared for Cell.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74955: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:09:12 AM

Well yeah. And we know those timelines as timeline 1 (where Cell came from), and timeline 3 (the Future Trunks we know). There's absolutely no reason why Trunks killing Cell would make yet another timeline where Trunks dies to Cell because there already is a timeline where he died to Cell.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74956: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:09:55 AM

Trunks never went back in time to kill both Androids and Cell. Unless you mean that when Trunks goes back to the future, in which case no, going back to the future doesn't create new timelines because it's not... travelling to the past. That should be fairly obvious.

The timeline is ALREADY split because of Cell, which is why Trunks is prepared when he returns to his timeline. It's not split by Trunks' decision to return, that's incredibly stupid.

I have seen that part of the video, and Plague is wrong. In a way that's even stupider than I originally thought.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:10:21 AM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74957: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:14:55 AM

But for him to be prepared to fight Cell Cell must have already travelled to the main universe where we see him die to Gohan. If he kills Cell in the original universe then Cell can never travel to the main universe, which is what prepared him to fight someone of Cell's caliber in the first place.

Unless you're talking about the timeline split caused when Trunks decides to return the second time having not killed Androids 17 and 18.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:22:51 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74958: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:16:54 AM

Which is fine because DB uses branching time travel so nothing you just said matters.

Cell and Trunks come from different timelines. The Cell that Trunks killed is already NOT the one we see in the main universe. Pushover explained this with Timeline 1 and Timeline 3 in his post.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:18:10 AM by Saiga

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#74959: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:21:06 AM

If I remember correctly, there's four timelines. Two Future Trunks timelines and two where they stop the androids. Timeline 1's Cell kills Trunks and goes to the past. Timeline 2 was never seen. Timeline 3 is our Future Trunks who kills the androids and Cell. Timeline 4 is created due to Cell using the time machine.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74960: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:23:21 AM

The unseen timeline is hinted at but not confirmed, and it would be possible for there to not be one. It's actually simpler just to have it, though.

The official explanations usually go with three timelines (main, Trunks, Cell) because that's all you need to explain what happens in the series.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:23:59 AM by Saiga

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74961: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:24:28 AM

Po G's argument is that there are 5 timelines:

  1. Timeline 1 is the timeline where Trunks got killed by Cell
  2. Timeline 2 is the timeline split off from 1 created when Trunks travelled to to warn Goku; but it is not the timeline we ever see in the series, since Cell doesn't return to this one from the future.
  3. Timeline 3 is the timeline split off from 2 created when Cell kills Trunks and travels way back to hibernate. We never actually see this timeline; it's one where Trunks didn't travel back the second time.
  4. Timeline 4 is the timeline split off from 3 created when Trunks travels back the second time and finds the gang has killed 19 and 20. This is the timeline we see going forward.
  5. Timeline 5 is the future Trunks timeline where Trunks kills Cell rather than the other way around, the one that eventually gets attacked by Goku Black.

Now, thinking about it, you might even be able to crank it up to 6 if you consider the two different timeline where timeline 1 Trunks does and does not return to the past the second time since that might cause timeline 2 to split off.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:30:23 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74962: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:26:11 AM

POG's argument is wrong. There's no reason for timeline 3 to be there.

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#74963: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:27:52 AM

I can't even tell what's different from timeline 1 and 3 in that.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74964: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:28:26 AM

[up][up] His argument is that it must exist, not that we need to see it, since Trunk's intervention causes it to diverge, going by the rules of all the other time travel we see.

[up] Timeline 1 is the original timeline, timeline 3 is the timeline created by Cell travelling back from timeline 1 to a really early point.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:29:35 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74965: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:29:47 AM

Here's the timelines:

  • Timeline 1: the original timeline, the split here is from the U12 time traveler.

  • Timeline 2: the androids kill everyone and Trunks goes back to stop them. Main Cell is from this timeline.

  • Timeline 3: Trunks arrives from Timeline 2 and helps everyone beat the Androids without having to deal with Cell.

  • Timeline 4: the Future Trunks timeline we know, who trained with Vegeta and is strong enough to kill Cell. Much of the Goku Black arc takes place here. Destroyed by Zeno.

  • Timeline 5: the main timeline.

  • Timeline 6: the timeline where Zamasu steals Goku's body and becomes Goku Black. Created from Beerus Destroying Zamasu while Black was wearing a Time Ring, creating a paradox.

  • Timeline 7: the timeline Trunks and Mai from timeline 4 currently live in, alongside the Trunks and Mai from this timeline.

There may be more, but we don't know about them.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:34:04 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74966: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:29:51 AM

[up][up] but it doesn't. There's literally no reason why the timeline that has been created by a divergence would then diverge again by nothing else changing.

That is explicitly NOT how the rules of time travel work, where travelling to the past creates divergences.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:31:52 AM by Saiga

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#74967: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:31:12 AM

[up][up][up] But then timeline 3 is timeline 4, otherwise where does Cell come from?

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74968: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:32:30 AM

[up][up] Trunks tries to make two trips no matter the timeline: the first to warn Goku, the second to check up on him when nothing has changed. These would cause the timelines to diverge just as his very, very first trip caused timeline 2 to diverge from timeline 1.

[up] Same Cell, just two different timelines, this time caused by F. Trunks arriving for the second time. The timeline split between 3 and 4 happens after Cell has arrived.

I will say, at least all this confusing stuff only appears when you try to take a look at the real deep mechanics, unlike in the Goku Black arc where nothing makes sense at all.

edited 9th Jan '18 4:38:49 AM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74969: Jan 9th 2018 at 4:36:20 AM

Are you referring to Trunks showing up while 19 and 20 are being fought? If that were to create a split timeline, it'd be in the past, not the future. Because that's how time travel works. Also, that's NOT what POG argued.

And even then, it's not said that merely traveling back splits the timeline, but changing the future. Trunks' first trip splits the timeline because it's different from his future. Cell's trip splits the future timeline because now it's different from his future. Trunks' second trip does not affect his future by the changes made in the past.

Alternatively, if merely travelling back in time splits the timeline, there is another past timeline where the only difference is that Trunks didn't make a second trip to it.

Still no way to arrive at three future timelines.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#74970: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:03:09 AM

This conversation only reminds me that I hate time travel.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74971: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:04:33 AM

I'm with you there.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74972: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:06:42 AM

Eh I just hate that future version of a character who's always the bearer of bad news & believes the solution is to kill someone from past while acting like a self-righteous douche over it.

A recent Detective Comics arc had a very insufferable example of the future jackass.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#74973: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:07:57 AM

I'm alright with it so long as the story is interesting. Heck Chrono Trigger is one of my favorite games of all time.

This song needs more love.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74974: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:09:46 AM

The X-Men franchise is practically built of time-travelling escapades.

One of the most iconic stories is Days of Future Past which made the movie that revitalized the film franchise.......... only to be ruined once again by Apocalypse sadly enough.

Still Days is a decent movie which reminds me I should read the comic.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74975: Jan 9th 2018 at 7:12:50 AM

Stuff like Chrono Trigger and Radiant Historia are built with time travel in mind. It isn't just a straw being used to stir the pot.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"

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