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Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#74851: Jan 7th 2018 at 12:03:12 PM

[up] Saw a really interesting theory on the DBZ subreddit where the belief is Toppo's powerup will be the result of Belmond officially making him the new Go D of Universe 11.

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#74852: Jan 7th 2018 at 12:06:25 PM

Is that even how it works? The only advantage we know for a fact that Gods of Destruction specifically have over mortals is the Hakai which is obviously not viable.

This song needs more love.
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#74853: Jan 7th 2018 at 12:16:29 PM

Well, if you Hakai'd the arena until there was nothing left...

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#74854: Jan 7th 2018 at 12:19:43 PM

You'd both fall into the abyss and Zen-O would opt to erase you both.

That's what.

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74855: Jan 7th 2018 at 12:26:21 PM

Heck, in the manga Goku was almost able to perform the Hakai. I think GOD is just a job, and doesn't come with its own powerup.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#74856: Jan 7th 2018 at 1:49:26 PM

You say that as if multipliers have any inherent meaning. Like, if a power level is "2" and then gets multiplied by 100, and then that gets multiplied by 100, that only puts the character in the ball park of early Namek Vegeta. Multipliers are meaningless without reference to what they're multiplying. All in of this means is that the Omen form is an even bigger multiplier/something else is going on that surpasses the god forms and Kaioken.

What are you even talking about? Super Saiyan transformation were always multiplying powers to begin with. Why shouldn't I believe this isn't the case for the God forms as well? Either way, I don't like Kaio Ken being moot again.

Heck, in the manga Goku was almost able to perform the Hakai. I think GOD is just a job, and doesn't come with its own powerup.

If there's any law of DBZ, it's that there's no such thing as an exclusive technique.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:03:39 PM by agent-trunks

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74857: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:09:25 PM

[up]Yes, and I'm saying that multiplier is meaningless without context. Goku going Super Saiyan when he was kid would just bring him up to 500. I.e. nothing now. Multipliers by themselves mean nothing, so you going "It makes no sense that Ultra Instinct can be bigger than two multiplier forms together" is a ridiculous complaint. And that's assuming the Omen form is just a multiplier, and not something else thrown together (unlikely, but not impossible) which is what I was referring to.

And I've never understood this fixation people have with the Kaioken to begin with.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#74858: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:14:04 PM

[up] Kaioken is a powerup not tied to a characters genetics so it's easy bait for "what if _____ used it?"

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#74859: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:26:23 PM

[up]

Pretty much. It was something anyone could have used in theory, but Power Levels grew well beyond the point where it would have helped even if the other's could use it.

Which brings me back to my what if Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb used the same principle idea.

If you were able to absorb outside energy to power yourself up (remember how in the early appearances of the bomb, Goku seemed to absorb the energy into his body?), or to temporarily beef up you attacks (as we all know, attacks can be stronger than the user, so what if you absorbed the outside energy and used it to power another attack instead of the Spirit Bomb), then a good limit could have been how much energy you were able to absorb at a time (denoted by the same level increments as regular Kaioken, such as times 3, times 4 etc). However, you don't have to take the energy directly into yourself, thereby meaning you can do a times 4 Kamehameha by simple collecting the energy in the same spot you'd form the attack.

I'm mostly think of this because I'm imagining a Spirit Kienzan, or Sokidan. Or even a Spirit Special Beam canon.

Obviously it would need limits as well, but I think it'd would have been pretty cool.

And this has been rob highjacking the thread for his own shit once again.cool

One Strip! One Strip!
agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#74860: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:29:45 PM

[up][up][up] That's a God scale power that's being multiplied by 20 & now there's a transformation that just happens blow that power out of the waters. That might be per norm in the world of DBZ, but Kaio-Ken irrelevant again is annoying since there's a reasonable drawback to the technique. Telling my complaint is ridiculous because I can't have an opinion on a transformation's power is rather judgemental but I am judgemental guy so why stop now?

edited 7th Jan '18 2:33:01 PM by agent-trunks

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74861: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:29:54 PM

It's not just that other people could use it, it's that some people who it would really, really help since they can't just get a new Super Saiyan transformation every week were actually on King Kai's planet and didn't get it.

I still think that power levels were a pretty bad idea overall since they limit storytelling a lot, but to be fair they've been out of the story ever since the Freeza arc. It's us, the fanbase, who insist on banging on about them.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:32:38 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74862: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:34:15 PM

[up][up][up] Honestly I dislike that idea for the same reasons I have issues with the Kaio-ken: as you get stronger, the amount you can handle should also increase, leading to extreme power bloat as base strength and multipliers BOTH climb together

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74863: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:34:49 PM

[up][up]Those same people most likely wouldn't be able to use it to anywhere near the extent Goku could anyway, so no such help.

[up][up][up]Well, kind of. You talk as if big multipliers matter in and off themselves, or if it's somehow weird for them to be surpassed when it's already happened before.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:36:55 PM by LSBK

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#74864: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:44:41 PM

[up] I don't know how many times I'm going to say "I don't like Kaio Ken being moot again" as my reason to why I'm complaining. You talking as if I didn't say any of that.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:45:10 PM by agent-trunks

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#74865: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:45:53 PM

Hmm.

I can get that, but I keep forgetting a key part of the idea:

You form the spirit bomb separately by gathering the energy and making it a ball, so my thought was that with further mastery, you could form that energy into attacks outside of the Spirit Bomb, with the quality of the attacks determined by the amount of power you take.

So after a while, you stop taking the energy into yourself and start just gathering it to make new attacks. It's an extension of the attacks stronger than the users idea. Basically I'm looking at it from the way Mistare Fusion looked at how the Z Warriors and Frieza's men fought:

The former are martial artists who are all about technique and spirit.

The latter are more soldiers who have raw power and identify it using hard numbers and technology.

Yeah, I know. That's how he sees it, and I bring it up because it's a point of view I agree with. I totally admit that. I also wish Toriyama had focused on that (though I like the idea of Goku being the union of raw power and constant training and technique since he's gotten the benefits of both).

In the end this is just another way I wish the other characters could have kept up, and is just my personal desire, and thus is completely open to criticism of all kinds.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74866: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:46:05 PM

[up][up]And I reject the notion that "Kaioken being moot" should actually matters, given that in the long run it never actually amounted to much, and is greatly inferior to what came after it. The Kaioken is not special; it's just another technique that served its purpose and then went out of use.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:47:11 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#74867: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:49:51 PM

[up]

Sounds about right. I do wonder if Toriyama had planned to just toss it away from the get go, or if he'd intended to keep it around longer but then decided that Super Saiyan was just better?

One Strip! One Strip!
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74868: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:52:21 PM

He writes by the seat of his pants. He introduced it, Goku uses it till he gets his next powerup and the story doesn't explain why they can't be combined (unless you count the Pikkon filler). Toriyama almost never plans, really.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:52:41 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74869: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:53:49 PM

[up][up][up][up] Pretty sure that's Fusion projecting his desires on the series. It's not totally baseless, but never as extreme or black and white as fans want them to be.

And I don't think amplification moves are a good idea because either every enemy becones a regenerator or ki attacks suddenly become less deadly which won't work well with saying they're being amplified further.

edited 7th Jan '18 2:54:07 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#74870: Jan 7th 2018 at 2:54:56 PM

[up]

Good point. Such techniques would probably start getting countered soon enough to ramp up tension.

Meh. I knew it was a pipe dream anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74871: Jan 7th 2018 at 3:22:07 PM

Remember how Toyotaro said that the manga would catch up to the anime? And how the manga hasn't even started the Tournament of Power while the anime's started the final battle? Either Toyotaro is planning on increasing the production rate to faster than one chapter a month, he far overestimated his own abilities and will be unable to deliver on that, or the manga's Tournament of Power is going to be an incredibly rushed anticlimax.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74872: Jan 7th 2018 at 3:25:26 PM

I don't remember him saying that. The most recent thing I heard is that the manga is happy to stay behind the anime.

agent-trunks IHE from Every-where, but there Since: Apr, 2015
IHE
#74873: Jan 7th 2018 at 3:32:43 PM

And I reject the notion that "Kaioken being moot" should actually matters, given that in the long run it never actually amounted to much, and is greatly inferior to what came after it. The Kaioken is not special; it's just another technique that served its purpose and then went out of use.

Other than that's when people mark the return of the Kaio-Ken as the show's Growing the Beard moment, but hey.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74874: Jan 7th 2018 at 3:34:03 PM

[up] If Super grew the beard at any point it shaved it off damn quick, and anyway I think the whole U6 arc is pretty decent as opposed to just that moment.

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#74875: Jan 7th 2018 at 3:35:10 PM

If someone destroys the ring, how is the winner determined? Especially in the case that both sides have an equal number, like if there's only Goku vs Jiren and they end up destroying the ring

I kind of expect that Frieza is gonna wait until there's only Goku vs Jiren and have them take each other out so he gets the win by default


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