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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74501: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:58:11 PM

What I mean to say is it doesn't really happen in shonen, and certainly not Dragonball. The only time I can think of is the Vegeta fight and even then he was strong at the start and just got comprehensively ground down. I can't think of any moments where major villains had taken damage before fighting the hero (loosened the pickle jar, basically).

  1. Taopaipai - was at fullstrength
  2. Tien - was at fullstrength
  3. King Piccolo - was at fullstrength and had been restored to youth
  4. Piccolo Jr - fullstrength
  5. Vegeta - already covered
  6. Freeza - well, he wasn't at fullstrength but he could access it whenever he liked, he was more purposely gimping himself
  7. Cell - at fullstrength and only got stronger the further the battle went on
  8. Buu - I want to say ditto but it's hard to tell with Buu, at least there isn't really a noticable difference in power between Buuhan and Kid Buu. (EDIT - as others below me point out, Kid Buu is significantly weaker, dumbass moment for me :P )

edited 5th Jan '18 4:16:20 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74502: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:58:37 PM

It's definitely rare, that's for sure. I can only think of Boo and arguably Enishi.

[up] WHAT. No notable difference? Are you kidding me? Boohan is massively stronger than Pure Boo. Pure Boo's roughly equal with Goku, who was way weaker than Evil (Super) Boo, who got his ass kicked by Gohan, whose power was added to Evil Boo to make Boohan.

It's not hard to tell at all. You just clearly don't know the Boo arc very well.

edited 5th Jan '18 4:00:27 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74503: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:02:36 PM

Yeah, Buuhan is at minimum like 5 times stronger than Kid Buu.

About the Jiren spoilers: they do indeed say that Jiren is actually powering up even more in response to Goku and Vegeta failed attempts at fighting.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74504: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:05:19 PM

Kid Buu was literally taking away all of the upgrades Buu had accumulated by absorbing the galaxy's greatest warriors & rendered him back at level one from his starting point.

Goku & Vegeta couldn't even touch Super Gohan Buu compared to actually being to fight Kid.

edited 5th Jan '18 4:05:54 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#74505: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:08:02 PM

What made Kid Buu terrifying was he was that rather than being as ridiculous powerful as his other forms, he was just pure chaos personified.

edited 5th Jan '18 4:08:27 PM by Lionheart0

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74506: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:08:48 PM

Well, I definitely haven't seen it in a while. It kind of all blurs together, but if so, then yeah, that's the only example. (and you can make the case that it's basically one huge continuous battle of Vegeta + Goku V Buuhan and then Kid Buu anyway).

Not that it mattered since it didn't really seem like they ever did lasting damage to him in terms of either health or stamina till that final Spirit Bomb.

edited 5th Jan '18 4:14:21 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
Jedi1113 Since: Jun, 2009
#74507: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:10:51 PM

We have only seen Jiren show any signs of powering up at the end of his fight with Goku, right? Even then it seemed more to show off than being needed.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74508: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:17:04 PM

[up][up] There's a break in the middle and Pure Boo is actually a different personality, so it doesn't seem right to consider that one fight. Although if that counts, then Jiren vs Goku and Vegeta would count as the start of the final fight, and therefore Jiren can start at full power AND still be worn down before fighting UI Goku.

By the way, I agree that it's rare and don't expect it to happen here, but I don't find it unthinkable and I don't think authors are deliberately trying to keep their villains in their prime for the final battle, but instead it just happens naturally as the arc progresses and they achieve more power-ups or whatever. Freeza feels like the only example of deliberately keeping the villain in their prime until Goku arrives.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74509: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:18:46 PM

[up] I would actually say Goku giving Cell the senzu is the most significant example of that happening (in Dragonball at least).

I see it happen in a lot of other stories as well. 99% of the time if there's Sealed Evil in a Can with villains trying to unseal it, that evil is going to be unsealed and beaten anyway, not sealed again. If a villain needs a MacGuffin to become ultrapowerful, 99% of the time he's going to get it and still lose to the heroes, etc.

edited 5th Jan '18 4:20:25 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74510: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:19:38 PM

[up] One of the more clever or crazy ways.

Goku giving Cell that senzu bean is def one of the most surprising moments.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#74511: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:20:58 PM

Regarding Shonen villains who get weakened before the final battle, I know it happens to Father from FMA.

edited 5th Jan '18 4:21:35 PM by LordVatek

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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74512: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:21:12 PM

While the gesture itself is incredibly blatant, the fact that Gohan and Cell don't really fight before Super Saiyan 2 makes it feel irrelevant, unlike the Freeza fight where Goku and Freeza's fight is a big deal.

I feel like Toriyama may have thrown in a last minute change with Gohan's refusal to fight (as some things around this time are very awkward) and so the senzu bean could have been a genuine attempt to have Gohan v Cell with both slugging it out at full power.

[up][up][up] Those examples are different from the villains being kept in top condition for the final fight. That's a different trope altogether, as keeping a villain in top condition isn't really a You Can't Thwart Stage One style goal.

edited 5th Jan '18 4:22:46 PM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#74513: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:25:22 PM

It also helped drive home that Cell never really stood a chance.

Not only was he not fighting Goku all out, he got healed by a Senzu to full strength, and then possibly even got a small Zenkai from it (that one's my personal guess, but he did get his head blown off, so that's pretty close to near death).

And then Gohan kicks his ass with laughable ease anyway.

I doubt it. In shonen the main villain is very rarely not at full strength before the final fight. That's why You Can't Thwart Stage One is a thing; they're usually powered up as well.

As Sigil pointed out, this is definitely a thing in Dragonball. Everyone else pretty much always fails to so much as put a scratch on the villain (even if they have a way to win that doesn't need power) and then Goku comes along and takes them on a full strength, managing to do actual damage despite them not have lost an ounce of strength.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74514: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:27:57 PM

One thing I like the the video games usually do is have SS2 Gohan actually fight Super Perfect Cell for a bit before the beam struggle. It always feels abrupt that Cell comes back, stronger than ever, and he only does three attacks and is taken out in one.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74515: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:28:39 PM

The thing is, in most cases they're not trying to deliberately wear down the villains before the hero shows up or anything like that. Also, Nappa gets pretty injured before he fights Goku, it just doesn't matter.

Like, in the Daimao arc Daimao gets his youth restored and gets to rest before Ten shows up, and then Daimao doesn't fight him so of course he's in good shape. The tournaments have breaks between matches and the prior matches don't get very intense anyway (they're not life or death battles) and then... that's basically it.

[up][up] Yeah, I also liked that detail. Because Gohan and Cell didn't have much of a fight that whole time. I mean, it's pretty much unnecessary for the plot to work, but it'd be nice to see.

On the other hand, I like how sudden it is when he kills Trunks.

edited 5th Jan '18 4:30:13 PM by Saiga

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#74516: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:29:19 PM

[up] (2) Maybe, but one of those attacks was backhanding Vegeta.

And that's always worth it.

edited 5th Jan '18 4:29:50 PM by Soble

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Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74517: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:30:44 PM

[up][up] Well, if Vegeta does wear down Jiren it's hardly likely to be deliberate either (as usual, Vegeta plays to win).

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74518: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:37:50 PM

There's two options the games usually go with by having Gohan and Cell fight after Trunks gets a hole in him. One, Gohan and Cell fight right after Trunks dies and Vegeta angsts about his death until he comes in to attack Cell and interrupts their fight. Two, Gohan saves Vegeta and gets injured, and then Gohan and Cell fight for a bit while Gohan's injured.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#74519: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:43:20 PM

I used to think the final fight with (Power-Weighted) Cell in Budokai 1 was a nightmare until people started uploading clips on Youtube of them beating it without breaking a sweat...

:/

edited 5th Jan '18 4:52:51 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74520: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:45:03 PM

I remember that fucking fight...shit took forever.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74521: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:46:01 PM

I remember Budokai had Gohan and Cell fight first, then Cell tries to kill Gohan with a death beam but it hits Trunks after Gohan dodges.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#74522: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:46:07 PM

[up][up][up]It still is a bad dream, other people are just better...

edited 5th Jan '18 4:46:20 PM by randomness4

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BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74523: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:50:41 PM

I just realized too that Budokai 1 is the only game where you can use not Super-Perfect, but his Power-Weighted form. In fact, his Super Perfect Form is never playable...odd.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Fedetropes Call me Blast, not Fedetropes from Doomed universe Since: Dec, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Call me Blast, not Fedetropes
#74524: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:53:29 PM

I remember that fight as well, F**K you cell.

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74525: Jan 5th 2018 at 4:56:39 PM

[up][up] Though his power-weighted form is really more like his Super Perfect form in the game.


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