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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74476: Jan 5th 2018 at 1:56:44 PM

I don't think Z's habit of introducing new forms nearly every arc should be continued, even though I don't think it was a problem in Z. At some point it just becomes too much, and Z avoided it but didn't leave much room for growth after it. It also gets to the point where Goku just has too many forms, which is why I liked Ultimate Gohan or RF making it appear that Goku had phased out all but his newest form.

UI is something I like, but the fact that the form is labelled 'Omen' worries me that another version of the form isn't too far away. And if Blue had been better handled, I could be happy with stopping at that. I also don't mind Blue and God both existing if God had been the ritual one-off and Blue was just the permanent form of God, but turning God into another form to have and having Blue be an even more powered up form makes the two forms feel really bloated.

[up] It's not airtight but I think DB has more consistency than it gets credit for.

edited 5th Jan '18 1:58:01 PM by Saiga

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#74477: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:19:44 PM

Beerus says he just lost an arm wrestling contest once. That doesn't mean he's confirmed weaker. Also, he's got UI too, doesn't he? Sounds like Goku would probably get exhausted before he could clinch a win to me.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74478: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:21:37 PM

An arm-wresling match is a test of strength, so that still means Beerus' power level is weaker. Beerus also isn't nearly as good with Ultra Instinct as Goku is.

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74479: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:27:44 PM

Its still good enough to let him survive being attacked by every God at once.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#74480: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:29:44 PM

In fact, most of the Gods have failed to master Ultra Instinct. Whis said so when he first brought it up, and it's the reason Goku achieving it is such a big deal.

Dragon Ball had never been that consistent with its power scaling but there some consistency to the power scaling.

The most consistent thing is that the higher your ki, the more impossible it is for the other dude to win. After that, it's only possible if you have some power that works around it, and that only takes you so far.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74481: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:35:30 PM

Wasn't Beerus said to be weaker than Belmoud in the anime? I'm pretty sure when Whis talked about the universe with a mortal stronger than its GOD, he also said that GOD was stronger than Beerus.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#74482: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:37:29 PM

Can't recall. One of us would have to re-watch the Jiren fight to know for sure.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74483: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:37:38 PM

He did, and Beerus said he only lost to the guy once in an armwrestling match. Still, I think we're supposed to be taking Jiren as stronger than Beerus as a fact.

edited 5th Jan '18 2:38:26 PM by LSBK

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74484: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:38:27 PM

I'm talking about before the current arc, when Whis first talked about a universe with a mortal stronger than a GOD. I can't remember when that first came up

edit: Oh wait, that was when Beerus mentioned the arm wrestling match. But you're right, the way Whis says it, he's clearly calling Belmoud stronger so yeah, Jiren is stronger than Beerus. And if Beerus was still stronger after all this time I'd be annoyed

edited 5th Jan '18 2:40:29 PM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74485: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:51:47 PM

If you consider that Jiren is stronger than Vermoud and possibly all the Gods of Destruction (the exact wording was "a mortal even a God of Destruction can't beat", and there's been various other places that imply that Jiren might be above the level of God of Destruction itself), and that Ultra Instinct Goku is capable of fighting Jiren and has mastery over a power none of the other Gods of Destruction do, you can extrapolate some interesting things.

SS2 Kafla was a threat to UI Goku, able to tank his punches and kill him with her ultimate attack. I think Kafla might be stronger than her God of Destruction, Champa.

edited 5th Jan '18 2:53:32 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74486: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:53:26 PM

Would have been funny if the God who beat him in that arms-wrestling contest was the rat. tongue

[up] Uh I don't Kefla is that strong. UI doesn't boost his defense & the reason why she tanked Goku's blows is cause UI wasn't increasing the strength of his punches.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74487: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:55:40 PM

Well, no, it does boost his defense and attack. Defense is explicitly the type Goku is good at, and his attack just isn't as strong as his defense, it's still stronger than Kaioken x 20, based on his peformace against Jiren.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74488: Jan 5th 2018 at 2:58:02 PM

I think that's misinterpreting it. Jiren never thought Goku's punches were weak, and Goku didn't notice anything wrong until his fight with Kafla.

I'm pretty sure he only had the trouble with punching against Kafla, so his UI wasn't so balanced the second time around and that makes Kafla's power much murkier.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74489: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:32:47 PM

Jiren didn't seem like he was particularly struggling against UI; he's actually able to block most of his hits and keep up with it for the most part.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#74490: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:36:19 PM

UI was slowly bringing Goku to Jiren's level.

Its what Piccolo said: Goku became faster & stronger with every blow, every punch, overcoming the sheer power difference with light-speed evolution.

edited 5th Jan '18 3:37:56 PM by slimcoder

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74491: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:40:23 PM

There's also Piccolo's line: "(referring to Kafla) This power... it might even surpass Son's earlier level! But if Kafla's power up could further draw out Son's power..."

The wording is a little ambiguous and up to interpretation, but I read it as "Kafla has become stronger than Goku was when fighting Jiren. But if he can grow even stronger in response, he might win!"

edited 5th Jan '18 3:40:59 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74492: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:43:14 PM

That's how I read that line too, and it pissed me off.

But I don't think they meant Goku is better at "defense Ultra Instinct" just that the first time he wasn't really thinking at all when using it so his defense and offense were equal. Now that he knows what's going on, he's only not thinking while defending, but thinking while attacking which is throwing everything off.

It's probably something he's going to have to overcome otherwise he'll do even worse against Jiren this time.

edited 5th Jan '18 3:51:06 PM by LSBK

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#74493: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:45:19 PM

I could see that. Goku did seem a lot more conscious during his fight with Kafla.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74494: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:48:59 PM

Something tells me that Jiren is going to have be softened up a bit before Goku can defeat him.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74495: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:50:14 PM

[up] I doubt it. In shonen the main villain is very rarely not at full strength before the final fight. That's why You Can't Thwart Stage One is a thing; they're usually powered up as well.

edited 5th Jan '18 3:50:37 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74496: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:51:24 PM

If he's put at a level where Goku can conceivably defeat him, but still put up a fight then him and Goku may as well both be at full power.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#74497: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:52:04 PM

Yeah, there was the line about Kafla probably surpassed earlier UI Goku. Which is weird, because the other reactions indicate that this UI Goku isn't as effective due to an imbalance in attack and defense. Though it's possible that Goku is becoming stronger while experiencing a set back in attack along the way.

And yeah, I thought the idea was that as a trade-off from actually being conscious and in control of himself, he's now thinking too much. I think the ideal UI is going to be fully using attack/defense without overthinking without being reduced to a unconscious state.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#74498: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:52:28 PM

Didn't some of those spoilers mention that it seems like Jiren is getting even stronger? I remember something about that.

Sigilbreaker26 Serial Procrastinator Since: Nov, 2017
Serial Procrastinator
#74499: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:52:59 PM

[up][up][up] Can you name me three examples of a shonen important villain being reduced in power before the final battle?

edited 5th Jan '18 3:53:09 PM by Sigilbreaker26

"And when the last law was down and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, the laws all being flat?"
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#74500: Jan 5th 2018 at 3:53:57 PM

Do I have to?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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